to give jabs to dts against ex-p wishes?

[ladyfirenze]

Dts are six. For long and boring reasons which I'm happy to discuss, but aren't the issue in question, they are not vaccinated. Recently I've come under pressure to have them done, and I'm happy to go ahead, but ex p was against it when the boys were born (as was I). He rowed with his pro-jab family terribly over it.

We aren't able to discuss things unfortunately, as whatever I say seems to finish with him flying off the handle during a change over, so I stay indoors when he comes to collect the children. Sad, I know.

But what the fuck shall I do about these vaccinations?

Why was ex-p against it? Was he just in agreement with you/your mum or were there other reasons? Could you email/write to him about it if talking ends in rows? I think ethically it would be much better to communicate with him about it and get his agreement if possible. He may have changed his mind too if your mother was the driving force behind the initial decision. Or, if he won't agree, you should tell him that you are intending to go ahead with it anyway and why, I think. You are the one in the position of power on this issue as a court will definitely come down on the side of vaccination. I think that makes it all the more important to behave well over it and not do anything behind his back, while ultimately doing what you believe is right for your children.

ok, a little bit of history......

My relationship with ex-p was a very brief affair. Before we met I had been with a long-term partner, who left me suddenly after falling in love with a work colleague. I was completely devastated, and ex-p was at that time, a gorgeous young (24) man who kept calling over to walk my dog.

I'm embarrassed to say that in a moment of madness, we went to bed together, and it was a distraction from the pain and loneliness of losing my long-term partner. may also be worth mentioning, long-term partner was female, and yes... sad though I was, I really enjoyed the sex with a man after five years. I am four years older than him, and at that point in life, I would describe myself as totally entrenched in the cult of my mother.

I subscribed to her beliefs, as I was desperate to be seen as 'worthy' and 'good' in her eyes. For this reason, I preached her message to ex-p.

At twenty four years old, ex-p (he's nearly thirty now) freely admits, he'd been taking all sorts of recreational drugs from the age of fifteen, and was a complete new age raver person. He also took acid for a couple of years, very regularly before we met.

when we had our affair, he'd just returned from three months in amsterdam, and had pretty much got most of it out of his system, but regularly smoked skunk.

his persona was a laid back trance dj.

He listened to me and to my mum regarding jabs when the twins were born, and was basically won over with fearmongering. his mum's a retired nurse, and his brother a surgeon. plus they all have shouty tempers, so you can imagine the scene. I wasn't there but ex-p came home piss mortal crying his eyes out in dilemma.

I have mentioned to him that I have changed my stance on the issue, and his immediate response was annoyance that I'd changed my mind. I felt that this was due to the family row, rather than the jab issue.

Also, his girlfriend is due her first in may, and I'm willing to bet she'd pro-jab..... could find out maybe.

There was some minor dv in our relationship (which ended before the pregnancy, then was on and off for a bit until boys were six months old and saw I was powerless to change his behaviour)

I've travelled such a long road in the last few years, and this issue is like the last bastion for me.

It really doesn't matter why. Resident parent takes all kinds of decisions without asking the other parent. You don't call your ex-h to ask if you can give them Calpol, you don't need permission to do something as routine and expected as vaccinations.

Tough luck he doesn't like it.

x-post, but he doesn't have any ethical objections of his own it would seem, even more reason.

also, even though ex-p is a colossal wanker to me at times, and fucks up in all sorts of ways, he wants to be a good father. He tries very hard to be a positive force in dts lives, and they actually spend three nights a week with him.

about a month ago, he came over and really buggered things up by shouting at me in front of one of the boys, who'd been very poorly that day with a gastric bug. I'd had to ask him to leave as he wouldn't stop shouting, wouldn't listen to doctors intsructions and then wouldn't apologise. He went off and called the police from outside, and when they arrived, I stuck to my guns, and said the kids were not going till he came in, apologised for shouting, listened to me (dts was not even keeping water down at this point).

the police were great, and even though he shouldn't have been allowed back into the house due to their dv policies, they eventually realised I wasn't going to back down, and he was asked to come and say sorry, then listen to me, before taking the children.

I've really kept away from him as much as possible since this. I've kept any conversations very brief, although at last drop off, he wanted to know why I'd allowed dts2 out alone to the local corner shop. I refused to discuss this with him, as I'm an experienced parent having done this all before, and know my dts2 is perfectly capable, and really chuffed to do this.

phew... sorry if I'm going on. The point is, though, ex-p wants to be a good father, but gets it bloody wrong a lot. He forgets himself and is a petty shit, but..... he's a man doing his best. So I think I agree with letting him know my intentions, then seeing what happens next.

oh, forgot to say - he's phonig social servicesd over the shop thing. I think he's stressed in his own life, and it's affecting us.... grr

Did you say the kids were 6 years old op?

yes they are six

seeker, measles itself does not kill - its potential complications do- just the same as flu. An example of a more serious complication is pneumonia which can occur after either measles or flu - both diseases carry risks. Which complications of measles are you particularly concerned about? The more risky ones are, thankfully, very rare.

ladyfirenze, thank you for sharing the background information. It does sound like a complicated situation for you. I think if you research the diseases yourself and come up with a plan that you feel comfortable with you could present it to your ex-p. If you have sound reasons for your decision and can explain them then you may be able to bring him around or at least find a happy medium.

Isn't that a bit like saying guns don't kill people, its just the bullets? Measles kills, end of story.

seeker, measles itself does not kill - its potential complications do- just the same as flu. An example of a more serious complication is pneumonia which can occur after either measles or flu - both diseases carry risks. Which complications of measles are you particularly concerned about? The more risky ones are, thankfully, very rare.

Stata, the CP vaccine is less effective in adulthood so your children may be left vulnerable when they are at greater risk of complications.

ladyfirenze, thank you for sharing the background information. It does sound like a complicated situation for you. I think if you research the diseases yourself and come up with a plan that you feel comfortable with you could present it to your ex-p. If you have sound reasons for your decision and can explain them then you may be able to bring him around or at least find a happy medium.

truly, I'm grateful for all the advice and discussions. Thank you all so much.

now being drawn into child abuse/ non vax thread

Bubbly, you clearly don't understand basic immunology. My children are constantly received CP boosters living in the UK. Their immunity is not wearing off.

You're quite right, bubbly, it's the secondary infections and other complications of measles that kill. And, your point is?

Lots of diseases kill you with secondary complications, arguably, no?

True. But some of those primary diseases you can prevent and some you can't.

Stata - from the NHS choices website:

'Three-quarters of teenagers and adults who are vaccinated will develop immunity against chickenpox."

So the vaccine is only 75% effective in adulthood. If your children need a booster (which they may well do - studies are still ongoing in the US) then they are at greater risk of being unprotected at a time when CP has a greater risk of complications.

Well, according to the US Center for Disease Control, it's 90% effective and if you get a case, it's milder. A booster may be necessary in the future but so far it hasn't been introduced for teenagers. My children had their vax in the US, I'll go with their advice. Maybe it's different in the UK, especially since you can't get the CP vax on the NHS (wonder what Big Pharma thinks about that one? maybe no conspiracy after all??)

How can you know if it's milder? They may have had a mild case anyway....

The reason it hasn't been brought into the UK on the NHS is because there are concerns that it may actually lead to outbreaks of shingles.

I wouldn't be surprised if it does get introduced because people are just becoming more and more afraid of any illness. Already you can see the propaganda beginning to filter through. It will end up being the measles of our children's generation when they are adults.

that's the scientific evidence bubbly. Children who have been vaccinated against CP but still get it have, on average, midler CP with less complications than those not vaccinated.

I'm aware that it's the fear of shingles that is one of the main reasons the NHS don't introduce the vaccine. That's fine but not a reason for my child to get CP.

My children aren't vaccinated because of fear of death from CP. I just don't see the point of them having it if it can be safely avoided. I'm well aware that it is usually mild and you have to be very unlucky to have long term complications. But seeing my friends' children going through CP, even ending up in hospital because it was so severe, I'm really glad I vaxed them.

It's not hysteria. It's common sense and evidence informed decision making.

BTW, I hid the other vax thread and I'm hiding this one. I get too drawn in and I have too many other things to do! Just in case you wonder why I've disappeared!

Thats fine Stata - it's your choice. I personally don't agree with your reasons but the world would be a boring place if we all thought the same way :) have a nice weekend!

What do you mean under pressure? From whom?

If you actually want to get your children vaccinated then go ahead. But only if you want to and it's your decision.

if your ex-p doesn't want it for his children, he would have to apply to the court to have you stopped. But it's unlikely a court would make an order that the children should not be vaccinated as they will undoubtedly take the view that it's in their interests to be vaccinated.

the pressure comes every single time one of the kids has a doctors appt. I am asked to justify my decision, sometimes it's hostile, other times not. Practically all of my friends are pro. They however, have simply told me their stance, and we have agreed to differ. Recently one of these friends mentioned that our local doctor is on a mission to push jabs. He's going to ring the family of every un jabbed child and discuss his views with them. If they still disagree he will invite them in to the surgery for more discussion. The freind heard this directly from the doctor himself.

friend!

Well, if it's only at dr's appointments, then unless they have health problems, it can't be very often then?