to give jabs to dts against ex-p wishes?

[ladyfirenze]

Dts are six. For long and boring reasons which I'm happy to discuss, but aren't the issue in question, they are not vaccinated. Recently I've come under pressure to have them done, and I'm happy to go ahead, but ex p was against it when the boys were born (as was I). He rowed with his pro-jab family terribly over it.

We aren't able to discuss things unfortunately, as whatever I say seems to finish with him flying off the handle during a change over, so I stay indoors when he comes to collect the children. Sad, I know.

But what the fuck shall I do about these vaccinations?

my children are vaccinated against chicken pox - and seeing the misery it can cause i'm very pleased they are

you can get it twice btw

sure ear infections can cause deafness. you can't prevent ear infections, you can prevent mumps.

Bubbley as I understand it can cause damaging inflammation of the testes post-puberty (hence DH's mum's keenness for him to catch it as a child, as prevention was not an option in those days). Not having boy children I've not looked into this as a parent so will happily stand corrected if this has changed over time.

I got vax'd against swine flu, as did my children. I got it anyway, lucky me. Whats that got to do with the price of fish?

Also isn't that a bit 'I'm all right Jack' about the rubella? People having their daughters checked so they won't harm their own potential babies but what the hey about anyone else's if they catch and transmit rubella earlier? AFAIK rubella vaccination wasn't available for children when I was one.

It can cause orchitis (swelling) in one or both testicles but this doesn't usually result in any longterm damage. There is no evidence that it causes sterility. I was very interested in that myself because I have 2 boys and I want grandchildren someday! :)

Stata, the CP vaccine only offers temporary protection and isn't as effective in adulthood. How would you feel if your children caught CP when they were older and had serious complications with it? The risk of complications with cp is higher in adulthood. With the best of intentions, you could actually be setting them up for something worse.

OK we skipped the swine flu vaccine as it was mainly recommended for babies/people with respitory issues/the very old, and swine flu was mostly a great big panic about just, well, flu. Not a big deal.

LadyW, my point about rubella is that people should be taking responsibility for their own immunity and not relying on ther people's. Unvaccinated children aren't the only risk. Vaccines don't provide lifelong immunity so other adults around you might pass it on or children whose vaccines didn't work. What if you travel outside the UK? There is no guarantee that everyone around you is protected so you should protect yourself.

Bubbley my Dad had CP twice and was never vaccinated. Am a bit perplexed why you think Stata's kids might suffer more from having had the vaccine? Unless it is just that it is generally milder if you get it young. Which is by no means everyone's experience.

I had no idea there was a vaccinations board, btw. You learn something new on MN every day.

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OK Bubbley I may have misunderstood you in that case. I thought you were a bit anti-vaccinations.

How irresponsible of you SGB, you could have passed it on to a pregnant woman or an immunocompromised child. What about the greater good?

Just found something interesting the other day - the fatality rate of swine flu was estimated to be 0.026%. The fatality rate for measles is 0.02%.(it dropped to this before the vaccine was introduced in 1968 btw). Why do we fear one more than the other?

Umm... more people have got swine flu? Perhaps because more people have been vaccinated against measles? 100% of nothing is still nothing, you know.

Eh ladyw?

I don't understand your post about the percentages. In the 1960s there were still thousands of measles cases every year and the fatality rate was what is is for swine flu now.

If it were me, I think I'd try to come to a thought-out decision independently - whether that means 'ask GP what she thinks' or 'spend several weeks wading thro' Cochrane reviews' depending on my personal level of understanding/confidence in ability to process complex scientific gubbins.

Then, as a courtesy, I'd present my conclusions to ex & give him a reasonable length of time to marshall his own arguments, which I'd listen to & take into account before reaching a final decision.

Then I'd go ahead with whatever I'd decided, & ex-p could try to prevent me (through the courts, I suppose) if we really disagreed that strongly.

All of the above pre-supposes that he's a sane & reasonable human being with your dc's interests firmly at heart & no particular interest in scoring points off you just for fun, obviously!

If this is not the case, & the whole thing would turn into a big mindfuckery waste of time & energy, I'd probably just go ahead & not bother to mention it to him...

My point was that if 1,000,000 people in the current epidemic have swine flu (probably a bit of an exaggeration but much more than 100,000, which is the next easy number as far as the percentage goes) that's 200 people who are likely to die (or is it 20? It's late and I'm not that god at maths). We aren't faced with anything like 1,000,000 people with measles, so a 0.02% death rate isn't going to worry people nearly so much, as it doesn't translate into a headline rate of dead people that they find alarming.

or spelling. good

Oh, and perhaps the thousands of measles cases in the 1960s was one of the things that made the health authorities think a vaccine might be a good idea.

LW - but 0.026% of 1 million sf cases is considerably more than 0.02% of a few thousand measles cases - yet if you even suggest not vaccinating against measles people think you're mad! :)

Also, if you look at the hpa figures measles cases and mortality were decreasing steadily before the introduction of the vaccine in 1968. The introduction of antibiotics in the 40s did a lot more to reduce mortality than the vaccine did.

Can I just point out that none of the so called anti vaxxers (I think you'll find we are not anti at all, just pro more choice and information) have said not to do it?

As an aside, just assuming we are all anti vaxxers is just flawed anyway - htf do I only have dd2 who is unjabbed if I am so anti the while idea? Dd1 had all her jabs.

What we have said is to read it through, weigh it up, and take into account the wishes of the other parent

Just because he is NRP does not mean his views can be disregarded completely. Bubbley is right - it it were any other subject there would be a more balanced view (sadly not totally, as many people think it ok to disregard the NRP whatever the subject) of "make sure you discuss thus, your children are important)

We have not been told why the ex p is against his children being jabbed. Maybe he has some valid concerns. Maybe he doesn't.

But to just advise to go ahead and ignore their other parent is a disgusting attitude, tbh. Especially as we know nothing about him, what type of parent he is, or his concerns.

It's also important to remember that while the number of actual deaths from swine flu and measles pre vaccination look roughly similar, measles is more likely to produce long lasting complications. Swine flu is jut that, flu. A few peopel will dies of it, but everyone else will recover completely. The sae can't be said of measles or mumps.

Silverfrog - you said that he one vaccination you would give if possible was tetanus. Why that one?

YABVU. Just because you are no longer in a relationship it doesnt give you the right to make serious parenting decisions that you know the other will hate. He is still their parent and has rights as well.

If things were reversed and he did this to you, I can assume you'd be livid and citing x, y and z and possibly cutting access etc.

I'm actually surprised that so many people say do it and not tell him, I can just imagine the outcry if it was the other way round and the mother found out.

Actually seeker, the risks of complications from measles are high - but these include things such as diarrhoea, ear infection, chest infection etc. The more serious complications are, thankfully, quite rare.

I know serious complications from measles are very rare. I was just pointing out that comparing death rates is not the whole picture, when measles sometimes has a bad outcome that's not death, and swine flu doesn't.

seeker, I said if a single tetanus were available or dd2, I would consider it, not that I would give it.

it would all depend on the situation at teh time, as it always does - her accident rate being just one factor amongst many.

tetanus is an odd jab.

I am at my full compliment of tetanus jabs for my lifetime. it is not recommneded I have any more.

of course, in the case of a wound meriting it, then I would be administered it - the side effects of having too many tetanus jabs probably not outweighing the effects of not having it, iyswim?

but not every accident requires a tetanus jab.

I was bitten quite badly by a dog just over a year ago.

it was decided (having taken medical advice) that despite the wound being: deep, a puncutre wound, obviously not particularly clean to start with (being form a mangy dog and all), and also hard ot reach to clean properly (bloody animal bit me on my arse ), it was better to ahve a wait and see approach than to have tetanus jab.

and, tbh, that is probably the same approach I would (and obviously have) with dd2.

obviously if the situation ever warranted it, she would have the tetanus jab, whether singly or in the triple. but the situation would have to be pretty serious to outweigh the likelihood of her having side effects, given her medical history, and I woudl rather she was able to have it singly, given the history of the other components in the triple.

The chicken pox vaccine offers protection for as long as it's been administered - last look it was 16-17 years. The reason it's not longer is because it hasn't been on the market longer so no-one can say conclusively that immunity lasts until adulthood not that it's been shown not to.

Anyway, if needed, I'm sure a booster would become available based on the earlier cohorts AND in any case, since my children live in the UK, their immune systems are constantly exposed to the CP virus so their immune responses is stimulated. They're effectively having natural booster jabs all the time. We're lucky having CP-vaxed children in a generally non-CP vaxed country.

Personally, I think that the choice not to vax is as much an active choice as to vax - and the OP's thoughts on this have been clearly railroaded. If she's the resident parent, then she's entrusted to make a decision in the children's best interest which this is.