to not like 'boy' behaviour?

[Nagoo]

My Ds is nearly 4.

on the whole he is a lovely lovely boy, bright articulate and kind.

Sometimes he behaves like a bloody idiot.

But it's 'boyishness' I tell him off for. Pissing about making an aeroplane out of his knife and fork, and sliding under the table, that kind of thing. He hits himself in the head and laughs, running around for his own amusement (I don't tell him off for that, try to distract him).

I worry that I am not allowing him to be a 'boy'. because I expect him to think about what he's doing and calm down a bit. I feel like I'm trying to discipline the 'boy' behaviour out of him.

AIBU to want him to be more sensible? Is it 'boy' behaviour?

Sorry I go on life experience.

there was a study that tried to do truly gender-neutral parenting and it was just impossible - the lengths they went to were amazing - rewriting story books so gender roles were equal, parents doing exactly 50% of housework/paid work/childcare each, and they only differentiated gender by genitals - e.g. "well darling I don't know if that person with long hair and a skirt on is a man or a lady because I don't know if they have a penis or a vagina"

Okay Mila my Mum was a children's nurse. She was a childminder when I was growing up. She ran a nursery for 10 years. She agrees with me. I volunteer in the local Sure Start centre and preschool. I'm a mother. I haven't just studied this.

I genuinely believe you think you treat them the same way. Years and years of research (and if we're going on life experience and anecdote please also include the other people disagreeing with you on here) suggests that you can't state what you do with any certainty I'm afraid.

And I don't mean things like they play with the same toys or all have long hair. I mean the subtleties of language and your body language and even the way you touch/hold them. And logically if you believe they're so inherently different, then you're going to treat them different and assume different needs. The way you display this will be evident in everything you do. Not evident to you perhaps but even at a subconscious level I bet you do it.

And I find it interesting because often we do a child a disservice. We explain away and we expect and we ignore based on assumptions.

I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong Mila or that gender is irrelevant. I'm sure you respond to your children as individuals. But it can be quite damaging sometimes the way people excuse or forgive or encourage or ignore based on gender assumptions.

It's to do with equality and expectations though not gender neutrality.

At the end of the day all kids are expected to sit nicely at the table,not jump on the furniture. Most parents will treat both sexes of children exactly the same eg if you jump on the furniture you'll be on the step.

The fact is if you keep boys and girls in all day with little exercise the chances are you'll be more ready to throttle the boys than the girls.

Also Cil I think just maybe I know how I treat my dc better than you .

"Most parents will treat both sexes of children exactly the same eg if you jump on the furniture you'll be on the step. " But that's what Cilantro is saying - parents think they do, but observation shows they don't.

Yes...you have to allow children to be children. Pretend play is how they learn.
But.....there is a time and place for everything...teachers, other children, other parents, relatives may not find it quite as charming when child is 'just playing' at dinner table, knocks everything over and spoils it for everyone.

Errr I do Hab.

There is absolutely no way that I treat my dc differently at all, sorry there isn't. Kids watch your every move,always on the look out for unfairness,it's called sibling rivalry,they monitor fairness in close detail.I'm scrupulous as are most parents I know with both sex kids. I'd love to know how parents who aren't scrupulous get away with it.

Yes Mila, I truly believe you think you know exactly how you treat them. Nearly every parent does. I include myself in this. But I'm merely human like everybody else and I am not that straightforward. My history, my beliefs, my social influences, my upbringing, every little thing I have ever said and done makes me who I am. And I am the worst possible person to comment objectively upon myself.

I'm sure in all the ways that matter you do treat them the same ie you love them and respect them and encourage them and enjoy them. But the ways in which you do it will differ from child to child. From gender to gender. From top of birth order to bottom.

I'm afraid you're human like the rest of us.

We're not saying you're unfair or use different standards. It's not about that at all. It's about the minute ways in which we respond to and subconsciously exhibit the way we're conditioned.

Re behaviour expectations I disagree,totally, sorry. I treat my 3 exactly the same re behaviour and no book or person I've only just met on a thread is going to tell me otherwise.

Any kid in my house who doesn't sit properly at the table will enjoy exactly the same consequences regardless of gender,birth order or anything else.

Kreecher I so hope I don't know you.
I know I don't like you.
I do not pity you but I do pity your poor daughter - do people actually like HER?

Nobody's talking specifically about behaviour expectations but if you want to focus on that we will.

So you take two children, one male, one female who are both dancing on the sofa when they're not supposed to. You say exactly the same thing to both of them because that's the way you parent, that's the way you've chosen to discipline. Maybe they get the same amount of time sitting on an arbitrary step or 'thinking time' or whatever you do. Both chilren have to apologise and you move on with a hug and a sorry or whatever. No real difference at all. You're right.

But what we're saying is that in that particular scenario what changes is little subtle things that you aren't aware of. Hypothetically speaking because remember I'm not even talking about behaviour expectations in isolation. I'm talking generally about parenting. So one or none of the following could happen in any given scenario. The tone of voice, the volume when you admonish, the way and places in which you touch that child when you place them in time out, the way you describe the event afterwards, the time taken to respond by you when it happens, the minute and unnoticed thought processes you have as you put them into time out.

Treating your child equally and fairly is not the same as gender preconceptions changing the way in which you relate to the world around you and the children in it. And you don't display this overtly.

I mean in the above situation if you had a parent who had all sorts of strong beliefs about gender and behaviour, you could theorise for hours. Because say both children who had jumped on the sofa had been stuck indoors with a parent with a broken leg. Well the boy can't help it can he? He hasn't had enough exercise. But the girl should rein it in better or not need so much exuberance. The boy could be excused because it's his gender after all. The girl must be more wilful. You're already toting beliefs about the motivation. And while you may discipline equally, you think differently.

By you I mean generic you btw. Not a specific person.

When you have multiples you tend to treat them all the same,I don't have time to think let alone treat anybody differently there is too much chaos.

I don't make allowances for anybody. If I did it would be pointed out pdq (my dc are fairly on the ball) and it isn't.

But there's no way you can be that objective about yourself. You can say what you intend to do, what you hope to do, etc, but you just cannot be that objective about your own behaviour.

is he your only child? have to say that with first child I was much more sensitive to this sort of thing, simply because I was used to having control in my own house, ie not having any kids around. more kids has meant more exposure to their friends (boys and girls) and I have to say this sounds quite normal if irritating. He'll grow up soon. Even the anal poo willy phase isn't so annoying if you ride with it. Just lay down the law where you think it matters (ie mealtimes) and make sure he gets out for a run around. I have three boys the eldest never did this, and was flummozed when his friends did, the middle one is as quiet as anything, unnervingly so often, and the youngest (3) is more like that but wil copy his big brothers when they're around. Chill out I say.

and kreecher: I hope the mother of your guests isn't reading!

But anyway, it's not about you per se - these threads do tend to move to the specific rather than the general. I know you don't believe it, but there are substantial studies that say there are unconscious differences to the way parents treat children of different genders.

Slightly off topic - went to a surprisingly interesting paper years ago where a guy showed that people tended to use subtle differences in certain letter sounds according to gender, age etc, and yet these difference could only be noted by machine - people weren't consciously aware of their ability to hear them. Not relevant, but strange and cool nonetheless.

I have a 4 year old son and used to find it hard to identify with his behaviour, he is boisterous and likes to pretend to kill things whereas when i was little i nutured things (mostly). but when i asked him about it it turned out he wasnt killing things for the sake of it, he was "protecting his beautiful mama" (his words). I realised (an i should have earlier with my education, but its always different with your own children) that all this boisterous male behaviour was completly natural.

if you dont let little boys act that way, encourage and facilitate their natural aggression they dont kill imaginary dragons, they might end up killing animals instead.

I seriously can't be arsed to defend brilliant boys and their boyish behaviour (boys are boyish, shocker!!) again, well tonight anyway (am tired).

Wish there was a hide buttons for posters, Kreecher comes to mind.

'I don't like boys very much at all'
You probably would if you had one of your own!! I had girls first and was abit wary of boys, had no brothers and bad experiences with boys (at school) and men. My friends with boys all wanted girls but I never really felt the need for a boy. I'm embarrassed now but I used to feel abit sorry for people with just boys

Well, then I had my own boy!! (have 3 of them now!)and wow it opened my eyes to the amazingness of little boys! I had no idea what i was 'missing' by being so naive. I can honestly say parenting a boy to me has been every bit as fun and good as parenting a girl. I even love buying boys clothes!! My boys crack me up at times with their boistrous jokes and fun. My DD2 is actually just as boistrous in any case. In fact my DD1 has been by far the hardest. I think it is more about temprament. I wonder if deep down i always wanted a boy but tried to supress it by being negative about them. Since I have had my own boys I have seen other boys in a new light! Hard to explain all that.

After my 3rd pregnancy ended tragically I then didn't care what gender we had as realised how irrelevant it was compared with having a live baby!

So the moral of the story is that if I hear a mum of just girls saying things about how girls are better or boys awful,I take it with a pinch of salt because they don't know and would feel different if they had their own boy.

Give me boys any day.

Don't you like girls runawaywife?

I have five 'boys' and one girl
It may be hard to believe but they are all people and some much more sensitive and fun to be with than others. This changes and evolves - as they do as people. Gender becomes less and less relevant the more you parent and it is ignorance of the bigger picture that makes Kreecher spout such nonsense.

She'll eat her words when her dd is a teen