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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Wanting to get this teacher fired

690 replies

lividbeyondbelief · 19/02/2011 23:08

My dd attends a language class on saturday mornings in central london. This week due to horrible traffic we were 30 minutes late to collect her. We tried texting her teacher to say we were stuck in traffic but never got a reply. Anyway to make a long story short - she left my dd outside the school, alone with another boy, whilst she went out to go buy lunch. To make matters worse she told her to lie to us and say she was in the room next door if we asked where the teacher was when we collected our dd.

Our daughter was really upset and cried whilst being outside alone with this boy. My dh noticed she had been crying but the teacher just dismissed it, saying to dh she cried because he was late.

Obviously the bond of trust is broken and she wont be going back ever again. My question is what else should we do?

OP posts:
Violethill · 20/02/2011 12:23

QLB - the point is, that if you are a teacher (and I assume a registered CM, though I don't know all the details of that) then you are covered quite explicitly by a legal status, which requires you to have greater responsibility. In loco parentis is a legal status conferring certain obligations. There is absolutely no evidence that the tutor was covered by this.

Its a very relevant point, because a teacher will have a whole framework of back-up - other staff, a host of various policies, a designated member of staff for CP....

The moral argument of whether its ok to leave a child of a certain age is entirely different, and is a far more grey area. Some 8 year olds would be fine, for example, at being left with another child for a few minutes; others wouldn't. And as has been pointed out countless times, you also have to factor in other obligations the tutor may have had.

Personally, I wouldn't leave an 8 year old just to go to a shop. However, if my own child were waiting on a street somewhere, and it was a decision about leaving my own child stranded.... ?

JohannaM · 20/02/2011 12:24

Violethill: The OP wrote "She had another class to teach at 2 in the same primary school" so assumed, as this tutor had only popped out for lunch, someone else would be around. Or did this tutor have the keys to the entire building with her?

Violethill · 20/02/2011 12:34

That's exactly what I assume JM - that the teacher had booked the building for a morning lesson, and then again from 2, and was the only person on the premises.

HecateQueenOfWitches · 20/02/2011 12:36

gosh. big fight. Shock

My twopennorth

OP should have telephoned, not texted. You cannot assume a text has been received. A phone call would have been the right thing to do. It was actually very bad manners to not telephone.

OP says teacher said she did NOT receive the text. so the teacher did not know why the OP was not there. In those circumstances you have to think. She had no way of knowing whether OP was just late, or whether they had had an accident. OP could have been involved in an accident and be in hospital for all she knew! Teacher should have stayed with the child. 30 minutes is a long time and although OP should have called her, it would have been the sensible thing for teacher to do to phone the OP to rule out the possiblitity of accident etc - which would have required action on the part of the teacher.

OP should not have assumed that because traffic is normally fine, that traffic will always be fine. Especially in london! You should always assume that you may be delayed and add extra time to your journey.

I don't think it is fair to want the teacher fired, but I do think that the teacher should have properly assessed the situation and considered all possibilities. She came back, but what if she had left, assuming op was on her way, but there was actually a problem?

Sounds to me, like lack of thought on both sides.

PaperView · 20/02/2011 12:38

Why as there only one adult with them? (the tutor)

AuntieMaggie · 20/02/2011 12:38

I agree there are a lot of inconsistencies in your story.

So the teacher was left with 2 children whose parents wre 30 mins late to pick them up?

Perhaps she had to be somewhere else between classes that you know nothing about because it isn't your business and told your dc that it was lunch because she didn't want to say what she was doing.

No I don't think the teacher should be sacked.

I think you should talk to her to find out the full story before blaming her for anything as you don't seem to have a clue what happened either.

No it's not a great idea to leave these children outside but maybe there are reasons why.

AuntieMaggie · 20/02/2011 12:39

Maybe they were kicked out of the building by whoever opens it and locks it up.

QuickLookBusy · 20/02/2011 12:48

I agree there are lots of inconsistencies in the story, but I really can't believe posters saying they think it was ok for an adult to leave an 8 and 7 year old outside, because parents hadn't turned up.

You are all bonkers!!

Laquitar · 20/02/2011 12:48

My dcs also go to a community language school and i've noticed that the teachers who have just came from the native country are much more lax about many issues. Could this be the case?

I think the teacher should turn her phone on and check her messages when she found out that some parents are not there. But it must be very annoying for teachers when parents are late.

ILoveFrogs · 20/02/2011 12:48

I don't think the tutor should have left two children on their own but it was in a playground and she was only gone 10 mins, not ideal but we don't know the full story, maybe she didn't have a choice due to some unknown reason. Why not ask her for her side of the story?

The majority of the blame lies with you OP, you should have called and spoke to her, not sent a text and just assumed she had received it. Half an hour is a long time to be late for picking up your DC, surely your DP could have pulled into the side of the road or at the end of a bus bay and ran to the school to pick her up if it was such a short distance by foot? I am a bit shocked you think the tutor should be sacked for something that was mostly your fault, so sad that there is such a blame culture nowadays and nobody seems to be able to take responsibility for their own mistakes.

JohannaM · 20/02/2011 12:56

QuickLookBusy: Sorry but have to disagree. I used to get the train to school in another city when I was 7.

I had a friend that I travelled with, and, after school on Saturday mornings we even used to wander around town for an hour or so eating sweets or buns and looking in the shops Shock Before we walked to the railway station to get the train home!

Are parents today being a tad too keen to get the cotton wool out?

Onetoomanycornettos · 20/02/2011 12:57

IF they were left, that's outrageous. If a mum or dad is late picking a child up from ballet, I stay with them (as a mum myself). I don't leave 7 year olds on their own. Sure, their parents usually turn up a few minutes later but anything could have happened and a 7 year old won't have a mobile or any way to get home so it's completely unacceptable to leave them to get on with it (whatever your need to get away!)

BUT, my concern here is that there has been a misunderstanding. I'm not sure if the teacher was there when they turned up so late. If so, and it's just the child saying that the teacher went to get lunch, I think it's more likely she popped back into the building to get it. This all sounds a bit odd and the plain fact is that the teacher was there with a crying child 30 min later, so to all intents and purposes, she did stay and look after them even if she popped away for a few min. And, perhaps leaving a 7 and 8 year old in a playground for a few min to get your lunch inside isn't outrageous, it's a judgement call.

QuickLookBusy · 20/02/2011 13:01

Well Johanna, I am pleased for you that you were streetwise enough to do that. I doubt many 7 year olds would do that today, and it is today we are talking about.

Violethill · 20/02/2011 13:11

Exactly QLB - times change, and with parents generally being far more anxious about their children these days, it makes no sense whatsover for the parents not to bother calling.

Original poster
lividbeyondbelief · 20/02/2011 13:16

Hard to keep up with this thread. No english isn't my first language but that is hardly relevant. And yes we live in zone 5. To me this particular area of zone 2 is not a safe place to leave children unsupervised. Even in leafy suburbia i would find it wrong.

My dd has explained that the teacher walked out of the school gates and left the two kids all alone. Seeing her walk away frightened her but she was too scared to say anything. This is an area she only knows from her morning lessons, so very unfamiliar territory. Whether it was 10 minutes or 15 doesnt matter. Something could have happened to them.

As for the poster who wonders if dh apologised for being late - yes, obviously.

Yes i agree a phone call would have been better, but we never dreamt this would happen. Clearly our culture is more lax with timekeeping than the english. 30 minutes doesnt actually seem that late to us. But even back in our home country you would never leave a child of that age unsupervised.

And for the posters who think i am being inconsistent, i don't see where. I have explained numerous time we were nearby,parked in a car park. when we left the car park we were immediately stuck in a traffic jam. If there had been a place to pull over then of course we would have.

Getting her fired seems dramatic to many of you, but the fact she told my dd to
lie to us is wrong. She said for her say she was indoors, in the next room, if we happened to show up whilst she was gone. Shocked that people would rather believe she has some freak eating disorder, rather than poor judgement and little morals.

OP posts:
flumperoo · 20/02/2011 13:19

How did your husband say sorry? Or was the teacher back when he did get there? Was anyone else in the building?

BaggedandTagged · 20/02/2011 13:20

[chucks OP a flame retardant suit and dives into trench]

captainbarnacle · 20/02/2011 13:24

I assume that your daughter will not be returning to class?

Violethill · 20/02/2011 13:25

So.... if you (or the boys parents) had shown up while she was away, your dd would have reported that she was inside the building, you'd have gone in to apologise and offer to pay for additional half hour - and realised she was lying? Hmm
Sorry, but its hard to believe the adult would have laid herself so obviously open to having her cover blown.

And the point that beggars belief is:

"To me this particular area of zone 2 is not a safe place to leave children unsupervised."

So, you know that the area is specifically somewhere you don't want your child unsupervised, but still don't think to make a phone call when you're held up? Hmm
If that were me, I'd have been on the phone within 10 mins of being late, and followed up with further phone calls when I realised it was half an hour. To send one text, and to assume its been received when you didn't get a reply, is mind boggling. And 30 minutes may not seem that late to you, with your lax culture of timekeeping, but you need to respect the fact that other people won't necessarily share that view

JohannaM · 20/02/2011 13:27

QuickLookBusy: Perhaps that's why kids today aren't streetwise, they're not allowed to be!

Stranger Danger really is overhyped!

Original poster
lividbeyondbelief · 20/02/2011 13:31

As a teacher she is also often late, but like i said, its not unusual in our culture to be a bit less concerned with being spot on time. IF she so urgently needed to leave the premises then why not try to contact us? She knew she was in the wrong hence trying to cover her tracks.

OP posts:
Violethill · 20/02/2011 13:33

One thing this thead highlights, is how the default position for some people, is to expect everyone else to acknowledge their own specific cultural idiosyncracies, while completely failing to respect anyone elses.

OP - you clearly expected the tutor to be totally unfazed by someone being 30 minutes late - in your view, it's hardly anything, not even worth a phone call. Yet you totally expected her to mind read what you would want her to do in that situation. Maybe she doesn't judge the playground outside that school as being a terribly dangerous place to leave an 8 yr old with another child.

You made a judgement call based on your culture, opinions and feelings.

She made a judgement call based on hers.

Do you still not see how you are being hypocritical to say the least here?

Blu · 20/02/2011 13:33

I think the teacher should have called you to see where on earth you were, if you hadn't spoken to her, and if she needed to dash for a sandwich - completely reasonable - she should have taken the 2 children with her, and answeed her phone when she was on that errand in case you had turne up in the meantime.

It sounds as if whoever organises the school has not actually done a risk assessment and training procedure on what to do if there is a late collection, and while not underestiating your own role in being late, I think it is reasonable to bring up with the organisers what happened.

That is my perspective as someone who runs an organisarion where children get left for activities. She should not have left them alone in the street.

Of course parents who are late more than once will probably get struck off, and the teacher will be seething, but that makes no diference to how the children should be cared for.

I don't think standing in the street fo 5 mons in zone 2 is terribly risky for a 7&8 yo, but it shouldn't have happened.

Psammead · 20/02/2011 13:33

I was in a similar situation to this teacher once. I am a language teacher and had a student who lived next door to the school.

Her parents hadn't signed the form to say that she was allowed to go home alone so I always had to wait for her Dad to come get her.

One day he never came. I waited with her for 45 mins. I missed an ante-natal appointment because of it. Turns out the parents had gone supermarket shopping and had told the girl she had to wait outside until they got back. She was five, and waiting outside meant waiting on the pavement by a very busy road. There was no way I would have just left her there.

YABU for being so late. It's really annoying.
She was BU for not staying with your child. I find that irresponsible.

YABVU for saying she should be fired. You are not blameless in this.

JaneS · 20/02/2011 13:34

I'm confused by posters saying the OP is inconsistent. She's not... have you read the whole thread or just first and last pages? Confused

livid how is your DD? It seems as if they lying issue is the really important one (I'm sure the lateness has sunk in by now), and it's not good if your DD stays confused about what happened and whether it's her fault. Is it possible for you to ask the teacher exactly where she went? If you asked her casually, without making it sound like an accusation, you might get the true story - hopefully it will turn out to be a misunderstanding but if she did expect your DD to lie then you'll be able to tell your DD how wrong that is and that it's the teacher's fault not hers.