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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that anynoe who believes in star signs is a complete numpty?

678 replies

bettybosseye · 01/02/2011 18:52

I mean it's so clearly such a great stinking heap of horse shit, how can anyone actually believe it?
Another mum at playgroup today was telling me what kind of personality my 9 month old will have based solely on her star sign.
All pleasant enough stuff but she actually believed it.
What's wrong with people?

OP posts:
BuzzLightBeer · 03/02/2011 17:25

ok then eyeofhorus, can you please explain to us how homeopathy works?

scottishmummy · 03/02/2011 17:28

gp still better than a quack in white coat selling tap water and claiming medicinal properties for peckham spring

Bonsoir · 03/02/2011 17:36

I don't believe any of the hocus-pocus stuff and yet I had a flatmate, in the dim and distant past, whose mother was a "faith healer" (laying on hands kind of thing) with a huge clientèle and I did actually witness her healing people successfully and definitively.

I still don't believe it though...

GrimmaTheNome · 03/02/2011 17:36

If I had a GP who prescribed antibiotics for everything I'd change to another one pronto.
Hmm

scottishmummy · 03/02/2011 17:39

a lentilmuncher at baby group offered cranial massage to baby for eczema.needless to say i declined.no ham fisted quack massaging my babies napper.no siree

GrimmaTheNome · 03/02/2011 17:40

Bonsoir - experiments have been done on 'laying on of hands' with total sceptics performing it and there is an effect. AFAIK its placebo, or maybe physical contact does something more - stroking dogs is also observed to have beneficial effects on blood pressure/stress (for both the human and the dog!)

Just because a procedure is observed to have an effect doesn't necessarily mean that faith, or homeopathic solutions etc have anything specific to do with the cause.

Bonsoir · 03/02/2011 17:44

Smile Not bad to feed family of three children on the proceeds of faith healing!

seeker · 03/02/2011 18:04

"I did actually witness her healing people successfully and definitively."

In that case, I wouldn't want proof of the healling - I'd want proof that the person had whatever it was they were cured of in the first place!

Bonsoir · 03/02/2011 18:08

seeker - since they travelled miles and spent £££ to get healed, presumably they did have some kind of ailment that had not responded to conventional treatment!

When I'm ill, the first thing that does not pop into my mind is to travel a few hundred kilometres and pay £££ for a faith healer!

BuzzLightBeer · 03/02/2011 18:10

how did you witness someone getting healed successfully and definitively? How did you evaluate that? What were your procedures for following them up afterwards to evaluate the definitive nature of the cure and its lasting effects?

So, er, you didn't then.

Appletrees · 03/02/2011 18:14

Hi there, I'd like to ask a question of the sceptics.

My position is that I'm a fan of nutritional healing but deeply sceptical of homeopathy (and some parts of conventional medicine).. but on the other hand have lots of time for osteopathy ..it's all rather mixed for me.

So I'm in the middle. I like a bit of woo but homeopathy doesn't pull my string.

Anyway my question is this. Why does homeopathy work on animals?

BuzzLightBeer · 03/02/2011 18:17

It doesn't. Homeopathy doesn't work on anything. Its woo water.

GrimmaTheNome · 03/02/2011 18:18

False assertion, it doesn't

Sorry.

seeker · 03/02/2011 18:20

"When I'm ill, the first thing that does not pop into my mind is to travel a few hundred kilometres and pay £££ for a faith healer!"

That is presumably because you are a rational person (even if you are a construct!) and when your doctor tells you that there is nothing wrong with you, you believe her! U

StuffingGoldBrass · 03/02/2011 18:23

What's 'nutritional healing' other than eating more vegetables and fewer deep-fried mars bars?

Appletrees · 03/02/2011 18:23

Grimma I can't read it -- what does it say?

Appletrees · 03/02/2011 18:25

Very basic example: measles depletes vitamin A, so you would eat Vitamin A rich food to replenish it.

GrimmaTheNome · 03/02/2011 18:26

Appletree - odd, the link works for me. Here you go then:

It works in animals...
So it can't be a placebo. An examination of this common claim.
UK-Skeptics © 2005.

On this site we have discussed homeopathy, how ineffective treatments can appear to work (especially placebo effects), and why people turn to alternative remedies. The conclusion is that most alternative remedies have little or no curative effect; but due to people not being aware of how remedies can appear to work, and the important practitioner/patient relationship, they often get a perceived benefit from treatments like homeopathy.

It?s catering to humans? emotional aspects of treatment that makes (medically) ineffective treatments useful for many people.

How does this impact on animals?

?Homeopathy works on animals? is a very common claim that is used to support the idea that homeopathy works better than placebo; in fact that it must therefore work per se. It?s a false claim though. There are no quality studies that show that homeopathy works in animals at all. This is not surprising as homeopathic remedies consist of nothing but water or sugar pills (see: homeopathy): they usually contain no active ingredients whatsoever.

What is really happening, is that the vet who is using homeopathic remedies, is using his authoritative position to convince the animal owner that the animal being treated with homeopathy is getting better.

Vets, like doctors, hold a lot of power over their clients. This can lead to a placebo effect by proxy where the animal?s owner is assured that the treatment will work, the owner de-stresses and becomes less anxious, the animal senses this and de-stresses itself and responds more positively to its owner?s more positive attitude. Illusion: the treatment is working! But of course the animal remains medically untreated.

See this letter from a vet that was published in the Veterinary Times: www.vetpath.co.uk/voodoo/edwards1.html

The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. (www.rcvs.org.uk)

Slogan: ?Promoting & sustaining public confidence in veterinary medicine?.

Surprisingly, the RCVS actually allows homeopathic vets to be listed in its register. Currently, there are around 50 out of 20,000 vets (0.25%). Why the RCVS sees fit to allow this may be to do with the internal politics of the organisation; but whatever the reason, it seems to be at odds with putting animal welfare first.

It is disconcerting to see a professional body, responsible for the scientific practise of veterinary medicine, actively embracing homeopathy ? a system of ?care? that actually denies animals real treatment.

Interestingly, in April 2005 the European Board of Veterinary Specialisation adopted the policy that "The veterinary profession received the prerogative for diagnosis and treatment of animal diseases based on the assumption that veterinarians are guided by scientific methods. The EBVS therefore only recognises scientific, evidence-based veterinary medicine which complies with animal welfare legislation."

In November 2005, the Federation of Veterinarians in Europe formally adopted the same policy as the European Board of Veterinary Specialisation. At the meeting where this was passed, the President of the Royal Netherlands Veterinary Association asked if this prohibition (on "implausible treatment modalities with no proof of effectiveness") included homeopathy. The President of the FVE confirmed emphatically that it did.

It remains to be seen whether the RCVS will follow suit and only allow the practise of evidence-based veterinary medicine by its members. If not, it will need to justify its position; and that position is scientifically untenable.

Conclusion.

The myth that homeopathy works in animals is not based on evidence; it is based on the claims of the vets who practise it. They are simply using their position of authority to convince their clients that their pets are improving with homeopathic treatment. Sadly, this is endorsed by the RCVS by allowing 'homeopathic vets' to be listed in their official register.

The major claim that is made is that homeopathy must work because it works in animals and they are not affected by the placebo effect. The truth is that because animals do not benefit from the placebo effect, using bogus treatments like homeopathy on them means that they receive no benefit from the treatment whatsoever.

This article has focused on homeopathy as this is the most common treatment that this claim is made for. There are, however, also practitioners who treat animals with the likes of acupuncture, reiki, energy healing, etc.

The bottom line is always the same though: the customers may be happy, but the animals are not being treated. These treatments do not work in animals at all.

----------------

Further reading:

Warning: these are cases where animals have suffered at the hands of "homeopathic vets": Case Reports.

Appletrees · 03/02/2011 18:28

hmm very interesting thanks

I just couldn't open it.. the page was there but wouldn't open it.

BuzzLightBeer · 03/02/2011 18:31

children with measles, amongst other things, are recommended to take vit a supplements, this doesn't equate to nutritional healing.

Appletrees · 03/02/2011 18:35

Actually it does. It's the most basic example I can think of as a response to "fewer fried mars bars".

I was assuming limited understanding from that response.

BuzzLightBeer · 03/02/2011 18:38

Calling it "nutritional healing" just makes something sensible sound more Woo.

Appletrees · 03/02/2011 18:40

Well it's nice you think a bit of woo at least is something sensible.

Bonsoir · 03/02/2011 18:42

Buzz - the friend whose mother was a faith healer was a student flat mate of mine, in Bristol. Said friend was French and her mother lived in France. I witnessed her mother healing joint friends of ours in UK and France - hence knowing the before and after!

Still don't believe it, though!

BuzzLightBeer · 03/02/2011 18:42

eating things with vitamins in that you need is just common sense, you don't need to give it a label and call it alternative.