in thinking kind, polite children are a rarity in the middle classes

[ThePosieParker]

Obviously a flaming type of title, but:

I bring up my dcs to be kind, share, be great hosts, polite, etc.... However whenever they go elsewhere (and I've seen it in my own home) the other children do not have to share and as long as they're out of the way noone bothers to check that they're sharing, not playing on inappropriate games on the internet etc.

I am torn between making them as egocentric as the other children or keeping them kind and therefore walked over. I have said to DH that I'm not going to force them to play whatever their friends want when they come here anymore.

This egocentric precious Johnnie syndrome even stretches to parties where children have some to a party and then 'chosen' children for something extra like a sleepover....

I do think the entitlement is particular to MC children though. Bad manners are all over but the feeling that you shouldn't have to be polite is mc.

Rather garbled.

I almost feel like allowing my dcs to be precocious brats just to be equal!! Not that I would, but it's tempting.

I think you need to widen your childrens circle of friends. If you're unhappy with the middle class children perhaps you could invite a couple of working class children round to play. Then maybe you could shove a couple up the chimney to give it a good sweep while they're there. Win win situation.

Mega!!

"I do think the entitlement is particular to MC children though."

Sorry, have to dosaree. this is not my experience at all. IME the majority (not all) of teenagers have a sense of entitlement. I saw this in both secondaries I worked at and most definitely in the youth section of the prison. They know all about what they are entitled to and much less about their responsibilities.

Likewise with younger children.

DD's friends are what you'd class as middleclass. They are all, bar none in er class I have to say, polite and caring towards one another and adults too. A couple find sharing more challenging, but at 8y ther are now much better.

But when we have guests I don;t take any nonsense. They do as they are told and they play nicely, or I tell hem they;ll go home. I have never had to carry this out.

The Y1 class I work in has a mix of backgrounds. On the whole they are all learning more and more to be polite, well mannered and caring towards each other and the grown ups around them. I can definitely say that the more middle class amongst them are not amongts the worst for this.

IME, both professionally and socially do not see the generalisation at all. IME, or at least amongst the children and parents I know off amongst friends, DD's school and my school, this simply doesnot exist.

Maybe it is something particular to where you are or the type of people/children you are socialising with?

Posie

I know children like this whose parents are so terrified of breaking their spirit or compromising their creativity, they are allowed to do what they like, even hitting, kicking other children and challenging adults they barely know.

One child has been having terrible social problems at school because he was never given behavioural boundaries as a small child, he has no idea how to interact with his peers to achieve what he wants without hitting or pushing, his mother struggles to control him.

I don't think it is a middle class phenomenon though, I think you just mix with MC children and parents. It cuts across all classes.

What is different is that the middle classes believe they have the monopoly on good 'parenting' techniques and therefore cannot be told that they are fucking things up for their kid.

Colditz I can have them packed and ready within the hour (not having a good day so far....).

It's also that there are different standards of what is considered 'polite' so if I left some cakes on the table I would expect the kids to pile in and not wait to be asked.

I've had to have strong words with my three about sharing and treatment of guests (IE: the guest chooses the game, gets the prettiest dressing up) and it seems to be gradually paying off, although hasn't been easy.

I don't think it's a solely middle class problem (have never entirely worked out what class I am, anyway) but I do think there are a lot of rude little sods out there

I have found that when I leave DS to choose who comes to play, they are generally lovely polite children. When I ask my own friends' offspring, they are quite often (but not always!) spoilt little brats.

Hhhmm, wonder what this says about my choice of friends...

I don't like the traits you are talking about and would think it's a parent's responsibility to pull their children up if they are behaving in a selfish or unkind way but I really think it has nothing to do with class. We live in a middle class area but none of my friends behave like this. TBH, if they did I wouldn't really want my children to be around them as I wouldn't see them as good company.
I think this is a good/bad parenting issue - not a class one.

Actually, and I prob will get flamed for this but...

I agree with OP and understand what she is talking about. I don't usually like to make generalizations but as a student at a uni that attracts a lot of middle to upper class teenagers,I know exactly the behaviour the OP is talking about. Its like a whole generation of middle class kiddies are being raised with no manners stemming from an arrogance and belief that they are the centre of the universe. It is something I am not the only mature student at uni (early twenties though my friends from uni range from 19 - 40's) to have noticed this. Actually it is often a subject of discussion down the pub or over lunch. The sheer arrogance and selfcenterdness that this particular grouping of students seem to have is very apparent and I can only think it stems from a childhood of being spoiled and taught only social etiquette that would serve ones own interest, such as how to rub elbows with the elite but hardly anything else.

Yes all children have thier good and bad qualities, no denying that and I am sure mine will too. But... Nurture does alot for a child and I think these children have grown up thinking they are too precious and been treated that way and have thusly gained bad manners and social, like the inability to say please or thank you. In fact, if you are not a snobby, arrogant person, you are generally looked at like a wierdo or somehow inferior by these teenagers.

Flame me all you want, it is my opinion based on my experience and I am not trying to offend. I know there are lots of children not like this but the majority of middle class teenagers i meet are.

Actually, it has been said earlier that it is not manners, but a sense of sharing and kindness and I totally agree. I just can't think of a word to describe it except manners so it will have to do. And yes, actual bad manners is a widespread problem and not class specific.

Thankfully i don't know any such horrible children. I do know some fairly thuggish little boys though who seem to think 'fun' requires hitting other children But they are pleasant and polite enough to adults.

I do like politeness and consideration of others, especially guests, but I'm not sure where i stand on 'answering back' tbh - I don't think it's wrong for a child to hold a different opinion to an adult and I don't see why they shouldn't give it. DH has this attitude to the DC that when he says 'be quiet' they should - instantly! But then he ends up in an absurd competition to see who has the last word

Yes, its about putting other's needs before your own. Not thinking about what you can get out of a situation, but what you can do for your friend, because they are your friend. Its not as simple as manners. And the best way to teach it is leading by example.

Its not rife around here, but I do recognise the behaviours you talk about. I feel sympathy for the children I know whose parents allow them to behave that way. They will miss out on a lot of life's pleasures.

I think there is a pervasive culture which does not value kindness or generosity of spirit or respect for for human beings simply because they are human beings. I blame X Factor etc

I think many parents fee their children need to be pushy and selfish to achieve in life and that therefore are secretly quite pleased to see little Tybalt, elbows out, at the sand pit.

Thanks for posters who seem to understand my POV.

I agree with Norm, although I don't blame the X-factor

I think Junior Apprentice should be BANNED

"Flame me all you want, it is my opinion based on my experience and I am not trying to offend. I know there are lots of children not like this but the majority of middle class teenagers i meet are."

So, do you have a similar sized group of beautifully behaved working class children to compare them to?

SD....My title was obviously inflammatory, but I genuinely think some mc children do suffer from this 'entitlement' unkindness that wc children do not.

Of course, no working class children suffer from a sense of entitlement, they are all too busy out stealing stuff and vandalising things.

not sure what role class plays in this really
unless middle class kids are the only ones the OP has encountered?
most kids can be pretty bloody obnoxious at times no matter what their poor parents have tried to teach them

SD..........

I've just never encountered so many self important little kids in my life.

Look I am middle class, I've no real issue with mc children, well not the nice ones.

I see this a lot with the "playground politics". When one set of mothers decide they are superior over another group. They make judgements without even talking to each other. When their child doesn't get their own way and someone actually says "no" to them for a change they are upset at first but then they deal with it fairly quickly. However their mother doesn't and spends the next six months bitching about "the other child and her awful parents". When infact all thats happened is the kids were being kids and the adults were also acting like kids but worse because they should know better.