To think that our expectations of babies behaviour in this country are too high?

[Tryharder]

There seems to have been a lot of threads around at the moment along the lines of "my baby is 5 weeks old and still won't sleep through the night" and "my baby won't go 4 hours between feeds, is she just greedy" or "my baby wants to be picked up a lot - is she just manipulative?" You get the picture....

Have just read a post about someone who left a very young baby to cry it out (don't ask me to link) and they are all smug about it because "it worked".

It makes me so cross and sad for the babies concerned who are subject to draconian regimes. Why are we so negative about babies in this country and so determined from Day one to impose on them a routine that makes our lives convenient, not theirs.

I know I will be flamed .

x posts, my last was in response to pigletmania

just googling for anything health related is a mistake

So Penelope Leach, an honorary research fellow at the Tavistock, is not a reputable source?

Really? What exactly are you looking for?

That first guardian article - which is Penelope Leach trying to whip up guilt to sell her product has been looked at here before.

This is not evidence, it is a hard sell.

on those corisol claims

cortisol, obviously!

Oh right. And what about the Harvard study?

I've gone with my instincts - if my baby is crying, he's unhappy so I try and comfort him. I don't need any research or studies to tell me that so I'm surprised some people do.

I remember reading an article that a mum on here had posted on it, made interesting reading as I did that once to dd, never again. I did do my own version of controlled crying whereby i would put dd to bed, if she cried i would wait a couple of mins, then go in say 'mummies here' 'goodnight' and go away and repeat. Well she was about 1 year and ireally did want her to get into some sort of sleep routine. DD now 3.10 is still a variable sleeper, I now just put it down to her and that she is light sleeper and does not require as much sleep as other children do.

I guess like adults children have their own sleep patterns, there is no one size fits all.

Because op it's all about survival.

Many of us want to be mothers. When you become a mother you have to experience several different changes as a baby grows into an adult. Many of these changes will challenge in different ways and not all of us will not handle all of them the same. Who says we have to?

For me the baby stage up to about 6 months is something to be endured,totally hideous.I don't actually enjoy screaming babies and sleep deprivation. I can't handle sleep deprivation actually and neither could my babies.

I could simple not function with the amount of sleep I was getting prior to getting my babies into a routine.I had twins then another 15 months later.I couldn't drive a car,go food shopping and was walking around like a zombie.I dreaded my babies crying,resented them and was constantly sobbing.If we're going to talk about stressed babies believe me being greeted by a sobbing wreck of a woman every time you wake is not ideal. My babies were totally utterly miserable.

3 days into a routine we were a different family. Very happy babies and a very happy mummy who actually looked forward to them waking up. All of us need masses of sleep and regular mealtimes. When we're out of routine we feel like crap.

We're all very different with different bodies,babies and tolerance levels. One size does not fit all. Op trying to push your go with the flow type of mothering onto others for whom it doesn't suit is wrong. Your type of parenting doesn't suit everybody and would make many mothers miserable(myself included).

We as mothers know what is best for our babies not books,not magazine articles,not forums and certainly not threads like this. We're all different so quit worrying about how other mothers do their mothering and focus on your own dc.

LOL Unwind - really great example of 'reputable' research :o

Ladybiscuit I do the same with mine regardless of their age, if they are crying they are unhappy and need something.

you linked to the Harvard student magazine - can you link me to the publications from the actual Harvard study, and I'll have a look.

So much of this stuff is drivel, written by those with an agenda, or something to sell.

Exactly Sparkle. Not rocket science. Even if it sometimes caused by the fact that the pasta sauce is slightly the wrong colour :o

By "all of us" I meant "all of us" in my family, right through the generations. I didn't mean "all of us" as mothers need sleep as I know many mothers can function on very little. Not so in my family though.

I think that the research is actually pretty inconclusive - the link above states that leaving a distressed baby to cry on a regular basis could be damaging to the developing brain. I am not sure that many mums leave their baby to cry for long periods in this way, but many will leave them for a few minutes to see if they are just tired and grisly, and would prefer to be left alone to settle down to sleep, or whether they need some intervention from Mummy!

I know that when my DS is tired, me picking him up makes him even more irate. However if he is distressed I have no problem giving him cuddles, bringing him into the bed on the odd occasion too.

It is not fair to make people feel guilty - most Mums agonise about the decisions they make for their children and whether they are doing the best for them, without being made to feel worse! Most sleep training does not allow a baby to cry intensely for long periods - and generally works pretty quickly allowing for the baby to get many restful nights sleep, as well as the Mum. Sleep is essential for baby's brain development too, and if they baby is not sleeping well due to relying on sleep props, then surely that is also damaging?!

Thanks mammamary

LadyBiscuit

It is so funny, all this. Neuroscience, anyone can have a stab.

who cares about who is affected by the nonsense you are spreading

ethics, what do they matter anyway?

Whether you prefer a routine or not, ignoring a baby asking for comfort, or making a helpless baby go hungry just seems unnatural - surely it's against every motherly instinct?

Juleswill, speaking a lot of sense :)

I'm not going to get into google wars.

It just seems pretty bloody obvious to me - we all know that children who are ignored entirely and feel unloved are likely to develop Attachment Disorder (unless you question that too). So on that basis, if you ignore a baby when they are asking for something in the only way they know how - by crying - it seems a pretty logical extension that it isn't going to do them a huge amount of good.

I think you're talking nonsense, you think I am.

I parent in the way that makes me and my child happy. And on that note I'm going to join him in bed (I co-sleep )

Night :)

That is why they dont recommend doing controlled crying until the baby is about 6 months or older. I ust left dd to cry it out one it was horrid, never again.

MoonUnit - exactly, which is why some mothers are driven to complete breakdown, when their babies simply can't be comforted, it is natural for some babies to wake every hour through the night, even when they are a year old

not everyone is as lucky as you

And re cortisol.

I'm pretty sure many babies experience higher levels of the stuff when they continually wake and are continually faced with exhausted sobbing mums than babies who experience 3 nights of cc with the odd 5 mins of crying then sleep peacefully for the rest of their babyhood.

And I can totally relate to the cortisol in breastfeeding.I never once experienced the feel good hormone just pure utter agony and dread.My 3 must have been chock full of cortisol during those hideous breast feeding days,doesn't seem to have had any adverse effects.

There have been times when dd was utterly inconsolable, that i had to put her somewhere safe and just go out the room and have a cup of tea. Even then i did not feel comfortable hearing her cries. God it was hard that baby stage, dd had bad colic and then the teething. I am enjoying the pre school stage much more.