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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that our expectations of babies behaviour in this country are too high?

513 replies

Tryharder · 30/01/2011 11:50

There seems to have been a lot of threads around at the moment along the lines of "my baby is 5 weeks old and still won't sleep through the night" and "my baby won't go 4 hours between feeds, is she just greedy" or "my baby wants to be picked up a lot - is she just manipulative?" You get the picture....

Have just read a post about someone who left a very young baby to cry it out (don't ask me to link) and they are all smug about it because "it worked".

It makes me so cross and sad for the babies concerned who are subject to draconian regimes. Why are we so negative about babies in this country and so determined from Day one to impose on them a routine that makes our lives convenient, not theirs.

I know I will be flamed Sad.

OP posts:
Unwind · 01/02/2011 08:56

I don't have time to read an entire bibliography - if there was any real evidence, I think you would be able to point us towards it.

Why do you feel this need to "evangelise"? Every baby is different, and what works for some, won't work for others. You have read a couple of parenting books, and think you have all the answers.

Much like some of the Gina Ford advocates you meet in real life. Difference being, I have never, ever heard anyone suggest that not following these kind of routines does any harm in the long term. Using spurious claims like that to sell books is unethical.

CarolinaRua · 01/02/2011 09:44

Bubbleyummy Unlike many other posters I am not obsessed with empirical evidence and methods when rearing my children. I go by mainly instinct so I cant point you in the direction of hard evidence except to say that for nearly all my friends and families (some ebf, some not) , children going on solids at the 5/6 month mark made a huge difference to their night-time sleeping.

Most pediatricians will tell you that a baby does not need milk during the middle of the night at 6 months if they are getting enough during the day. However they may still want milk and then it becomes the mothers choice as to whether or not she wants to either feed more and/or do some form of controlled crying to get some sleep.

I must say that I find this attitude of 'SHOW MME THE EVIDENCE, SEND A LINK' that is on Mumsnet a bit tiresome.
People have been parenting for ever without labels such as 'attached' 'routine' ascribed to them!!

TandB · 01/02/2011 10:03

I am slightly puzzled as to why threads like these become quite as antagonistic as they do. I have read this thread in one go and there are an awful lot of "so you are saying that.." type comments when the post to which they are responding bears absolutely no relation to the interpretation put on it. It seems like people have an assumption about that attitude of people who take a different approach and impose that assumption on whatever the other person says.

I think a lot of the polarisation of opinions comes from the slightly illogical tendency to lump all sorts of practices together under the name "routine" when there are actally a huge number of variations and motivations behind those routines.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a parent coming to understand their baby and putting in place a routine which predicts the needs of that particular child. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a parent coming to understand that a child is struggling with a particular issue, whether that be sleep, feeding, tummy-time, whatever, and putting some sort of structure in place so the child develops and awareness of how things work. A routine can be child-led - it isn't automatically the devil's own work, which does seem to be the attitude of a lot of parents who describe themselves as baby-led or attachment parents.

What I do struggle with, and I suspect this was the point of the OP although it could have been clearer, is the imposition of an entiely arbitrary routine on a very young baby before the parents have had time to gain any sort of understanding their particular individual baby's needs and personality. I know someone who imposed a GF type routine from day one (although my understanding is that GF does not advocate leaving a hungry newborn to cry which is what they did) and followed it to the letter, refusing to feed the baby more frequently than three-hourly and refusing to pick her up during the night if she cried. I was gobsmacked at the approach they took and the reasoning behind it (very old-school, rod for your own back type theories). I also know a couple of mums who persisted with routines which were clearly, and by their own admission, not working, simply because that was the routine they had thought up and they were going to persist until it did work - there was no adjustment made for the emerging picture of the baby's wants and needs.

I think most posters on this thread who have chosen to develop routines, have quite clearly done so with their child's needs in mind. I have seen little that suggests a "sod you, you will sleep for three hours now" attitude, although this seems to be inferred by some other posters. However, I have to say that I am horrified by the post asserting that the one month-old was manipulative. Sorry to whoever said that, and this is not something I say lightly, but you are quite simply wrong. A one month-old, even the most advanced one month-old ever born, is simply not capable of being manipulative. At the absolute highest I would imagine a young baby's instinctive reasoning might be something like "mum cuddles, warm, nice, mmmmmm. Oh, no mum cuddles, cold, not nice, waaaaaaaah." Manipulative? I think that is an awful thing to say.

FWIW I bradly consider myself to be an attachment parent. We have never had a strict routine, although bedtime has been around the same time since he was about 4 months. I use a sling, co-slept on and off and generally let his cues lead the way. If he had shown signs of wanting a more structured approach then that is what we would have done.

minxofmancunia · 01/02/2011 10:12

having worked in child mental health for 10 years I would probably conclude that sleep trained babies who're securely attached, have lots of cuddles, warmth and stimulation will be for the most part fine. It's highly unlikely they will grow up to have major mental health problems and personality disorders because a parent did cc for a few nights. A calm, rested family is better able to tend to the needs of their children during the day. That said parents sometimes do implement cc FAR to early and have no understanding of the impact a needy newborn will have on their lives and do have unrealistic expectations.

A whole HOST of other factors influence how emotionally robust/vulnerable a person is that make cc pale into comparison. E.g. drug abuse, homelessness, social deprivation, lack of education, community fragmentation etc. etc. A baby of 6 months+ who is securely attached will be ok IMO.

I too agree with the point about some mothers being martyrs to sleep deprivation but refusing to do anything about it. And bf toddlers in the night doesn't do you, or them any favours. By this age they are developmentally able to take all the nutrition they need in the day.

bubbleymummy · 01/02/2011 10:30

Anecdotes do not equal proof Carolina and to be quite frank - many paediatricians knowledge of breastfeeding is pretty woeful! If you are going to make a statement such as "babies do not need milk at night after 6 months' then you are going to need to back it up with something. It is irresponsible to post something like that as a fact when you have no way of knowing if it is true or not.

If your baby didn't wake for feeds during the night then that's great for you. Mine did and I wasn't going to start arguing with him in the middle of the night about whether or not he needed it! :)

FWIW La Leche League certainly think it's perfectly normal for babies to still be feeding at night at 6 months and beyond. The calories from early weaning foods would in no way be enough to replace those from milk. Milk is still a very big part of their diets up to 1 year old.

KnittedBreast · 01/02/2011 10:42

i dont understand why people read baby books- why would you trust what someone else says rather than whats right for your baby?

big swizz if you ask me

CarolinaRua · 01/02/2011 10:50

Dear God bubbleyummy I can make anecdotal statements if I wish as can you. Your posts are littered with them.
These threads get heated because some people simply cannot tolerate that others have a view different to theirs. Its up to you whether you think your baby needed milk or it was habit. Thats your judgement and thats fine, mine is different. Also its not about breastfeeding, its about nutrician and sleeping. Whether you are breastfeeding or not is not the issue past 6 months, in my opinion.

For the record as stated mine is go by your instinct and not by a book, however I was a routine fan (a fairly loose one though) and it worked for me and my DD and I am hoping it will work for the next one. If it can be possibly avoided I do not want to be woken up for feeds by a 7 month old. If its not possible, then I'lljust have to deal with it.

varicoseveined · 01/02/2011 11:01

Having only read first page so far, it seems that people are confusing old fashioned views in "spoiling" a baby/"manipulative" babies and routines. FGS routine doesn't mean ignoring your baby's cry, neither does going with the flow mean that you are a slave to every whimper.

londonlottie · 01/02/2011 11:11

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bubbleymummy · 01/02/2011 11:12

Carolina you are trying to back up your statement that 'babies do not need milk at night after 6 months' with anecdotes. Anecdotes can not prove that. If you want to say that YOUR babies or your friend's babies or whoever didn't need milk at night then that's fine but you can't present something as a fact and only support it with anecdotes - that does not make it true. Many babies still DO need milk at night at that age.

Varicose, yes, that has come through a lot. No one is criticising routine as such just ENFORCED routines. We all have routines of some description (even if it's just the order that we do things each day! ) but some of us prefer our routine to be more child led than clock led if that makes sense.

bubbleymummy · 01/02/2011 11:18

london, that was in response to Carolina's specific comment that babies do not need milk at night after weaning age (6 months).

London, you may see it as holding you back but some people don't mind giving milk at night and children stop when they're ready. It's not like they'll NEVER stop unless you stop it. Obviously if it's bothering you and you feel you need to do something about it then it's up to you but some people don't feel the need to stop night feeds to feel as if they're progressing. They're happy the way they are.

CarolinaRua · 01/02/2011 11:18

I just couldnt be bothered responding, knock youself out with the books and the reports. I am going back to reality

londonlottie · 01/02/2011 11:21

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bubbleymummy · 01/02/2011 11:23

LOL Carolina. :) Just don't try to pass your own opinions/anecdotes off as facts and you won't get called on it!

bubbleymummy · 01/02/2011 11:24

Oh goodness - if it was getting up to give a bottle I can see why someone would not want to be doing that at age 2 anyway! I cosleep and BF so it's an easy option for me. If I actually had to get out of bed it might be different story! :)

londonlottie · 01/02/2011 11:29

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NinkyNonker · 01/02/2011 11:32

Sue Gerhart is a good read actually, she's just done another one about Selfish Society or something.

Dd is 6 mo and still wakes in the night despite being a chubba. I have started her on food but was told by hv that all of her nutrition is still from milk, and prob will be for a long time.

londonlottie · 01/02/2011 11:39

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sheepgomeep · 01/02/2011 11:42

Some babies do need milk after the weaning stage, especially if they are or have been ill or not gaining weight

DD3 is 9 months in a weeks time,although born a hefty 9lbs 12.5 oz she due to illness and little appetite has not doubled her birth weight and is still only just over 16lbs. She has been weaned yes but again has very little appetite, assoon as she does feel better and starts to eat and drink more then bam another cold.

I do still feed her in the night, she still has milk every 3 hours during the day on advice by my doctor and hv. Her appetite has increased though lately and has a really good breakfast which is nice to see.

Anyway I'm rambling. tbh I am just going by what dd3 wants in terms of feeding, I have 4 dc and I had a strict routine with my ds, not so strict with dd1, same with dd2 and go with the flo with dd3, let me tell you they have all turned out ok whateve routine they have had

greatauntbetty · 01/02/2011 11:55

Well this is fun.

So no-one can agree on the best way to bring up a child? Now thats new Wink. Some things work, some don't. What worked for DS1 certainly hasn't for DS2. DS1 did have some controlled crying but cc has absolutely no effect on DS2. DS1 slept through (finally) at around 6 months but DS2 still showing little signs at 2 and a bit. Would love him to sleep better - for all of us.

I get views and opinions on ways to help anywhere I can and include books, MN, friends and family. Some I take on, some I don't. If there is one thing I have learnt since having children, its not to dismiss something straight off because it seems like a crazy idea - some of those crazy ideas have been invaluable as my kids get older and need different things.

greatauntbetty · 01/02/2011 11:56

Should have said - DS2 still has an early morning bottle (I stopped BFing at 12 months ish). Am sure he doesn't need it, and would never have considered it with DS1, but it works for him. And means the day starts around 6:30 and not 5.

Nefret · 01/02/2011 11:58

I read a lot of baby books but I never had any particular rountine for DD1, she ate when hungry and slept (or not as was more usual) when she was tired. With DD2 I did feel I needed some kind of routine as it was just not so easy with two children.

I know I probably didn't make things easy for myself by the way I did things but I never left my babies crying, ok I didn't jump the minute they made a noise and there were certainly times when I just had to leave them for a few minutes but I didn't not pick them up because it would spoil them, I loved cuddling my babies as much as I could and we still have so many cuddles now they are a bit older, they still sleep in my bed a lot of the time too Smile

rodformyownback · 01/02/2011 14:18

Unwind I don't think I said anywhere that I think I know all the answers. When I joined the thread somebody had asked for evidence about leaving babies to cry stating they had "never seen any evidence anywhere". Those books came to mind. I don't think they're bibles in the slightest.
I used the term evangelise with a Smile emoticon to indicate some humour and self irony. You clearly missed this. If I were a real evangelist I would bother to root out primary sources, but last night I was far too busy breastfeeding. And watching Tool Academy Blush. I still can't be arsed today tbh. You look if you're so bothered. I've got to stack the dishwasher. And do some more sodding breastfeeding.

Quenelle · 01/02/2011 14:27

YANBU If it's taken to extremes.

My friend 'sleeptrained' her baby at 10 weeks. DH and I spent a very upsetting evening at theirs listening to him 'cry it out' at 13 weeks old because his dad refused to go to him (said he had to learn that he wouldn't get attention just because he was crying - at 13 weeks!). His mum said she couldn't go because 'it had to be the same person each time'.

She gave in after an hour. The baby's dummy had fallen out, that was all. His mum confessed when she came back that she 'cheated and stroked his head' to help him back to sleep Sad.

bubbleymummy · 01/02/2011 14:38

:( quenelle. What is wrong with some people? Where on earth has the idea that babies are manipulative come from? I honestly don't think I could have sat through that :( and Angry

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