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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBUR to be concerned (LONG)

137 replies

DeeleyBop · 11/01/2011 21:22

My SIL 'trapped' my brother into being with her by getting pregnant. My brother and I were never close, TBH I thought (think?) he was a bit of a prat for falling for it (you can be part of a childs life without marrying the bloody woman!) Nonetheless, they seemed to be OK and whatever I think of her mother, I adore my nephew, who is gorgeous and clever and wonderful (of course). However, as soon as the baby was born, things seemed to start sending me alarm signals.

Brother & SIL were living with HER mum when the baby was born. They had pet guinea pigs, which died of starvation in the days of baby coming because they forgot to feed her.

SILs mum kicked them (and baby!) out of house about three months later because they 'made too much mess', so they came to stay with me, DP and DD. I can utterly confirm that they live worse than pigs, but that's not really the point.

Nephew would be awake at 7am, be grabbed out of cot and put on end of bed until noon when parents would finally wake up (neither work). He would cry from hunger, or need to be changed, or (twice!) because he had been kicked off of the end of the bed by sleeping parents. In the end, I usually took Nephew downstairs, fed him, changed him, chatted with him, showed him the world (good morning trees!) as with my own DD before all getting dressed to go to the park or the shop or just for a wander. SIL would come down at noon (NOON! At the earliest!) and say good morning to Nephew and offer him breakfast. She would totally ignore me and DD (who seemed bemused, and a little hurt if I'm honest).

She would refuse to allow Nephew to leave the house with me and DD, often shouting and swearing "he's my baby!".

SIL never changed Nephews nappy on her own, not once the entire time she lived with us (nearly six months). It was both infuriating an terrifying to see her scream and shout at my brother to pass her the baby wipes, QUICKER or whathaveyou, and to see her scaring and upsetting Nephew, who seemed to quite enjoy being changed by anyone else, in the way that they do ("ooh! look! I'm naked! This is brilliant! Hang on, what the hells this thing?!"). But SIL seemed to make it into this massive ordeal, that she couldn't bear to do.

One one occasion, my brother shouted at me that I was an interfering whore (because DP and I are unmarried) who didn't know anything (despite having two youth and children qualifications and my own DC, two years older than theirs) and was trying to 'ruin their lives' and DP (I don't think I've ever loved him as much as I did right then) pointed out, firmly but calmly that I had housed my brother and his wife and their child, despite the financial and emotional complications for our family, that I was concerned for Nephew despite what I think of them and that I had on numerous occasions asked what I could do to better help them.

He touched on the fact that it was a "surprise" for my brother that Nephew was conceived, and pointed out that if my brother expected us to house him and some girl he'd knocked up, he could at least accord me the courtesy of keeping his own opinions about our marital status to himself. He again said that we were both v. concerned for Nephew, and also for SIL - asking that she see a doctor about possible PND. SIL flew into a rage at being called 'some girl' (they'd known each other two months when she got pregnant. DP and I had been together four years BEFORE the possibility of a DC was mentioned) and literally screaming and flailing like a the worst kind of toddler. She then (actually scarily hysterical) tried to go upstairs and wake Nephew and take him with her. We refused - to let her upstairs, partly for DD, who I knew would be awake and terrified at the shouting, never mind having SIL barge upstairs into her bedroom, but mostly for Nephew as we were concerned as to what she was going to do in the middle of the night with no money in a random village miles from anywhere. I insisted she calmed down before she could take Nephew anywhere (Brother actually agreed. He's a dick, but I think she scared even him that night) as she would just upset him. Eventually she stormed out on her own and sat on the wall outside and pinched herself black and blue.

She eventually came back in and just went straight upstairs to bed. TBH, I couldn't face more of her. She had properly scared me and I had only just calmed DD down.

On another occasion, I was washing up while DD sat on the side beside me, chatting. I splashed her and we were having a very tame waterfight (mostly her giggling trying not to fall in!) when my mother brings in Nephew who sticks his hands out to DD, who then splashes him. Slightly. It was literally about four teeny-tiny drops, flung from the tips of her fingers. It caught him right in the face and Nephew looked utterly confused for a second, and then giggled his little head off. SIL immediately charged in and SCREAMED and SWORE at DD, reducing her (and Nephew) to tears. I told her not to talk to DD like that, my mother took both the children out of the room instead. I told SIL that in this house we ASK FIRST. (I'm not averse to a bit of shouting, but this was insane screaming with no warning!) I told her that it is not appropriate to talk to any child like that, and I would not have it repeated. She refused to apologize to DD who was v. v. upset (luckily she adores her Nana, who's a bit mad and lets her do all sorts of things she isn't allowed at home, like riding the dog and sitting in the sink) and began shouting about me abusing HER baby.

There were lots of things that me and DP felt did not sit right, though we tried v. hard not to be the judgey middle-class couple looking down on their poor, unemployed relatives. They 'could not afford' to pay share of our electricity bill, or to contribute to the food in any meaningful way. They occasionally, after much asking would bring down the dirty plates and cups from their bedroom. That was as much as I could get them to contribute to the housework. Neither of them washed enough, and were both happy to cram Nephew into dirty babygros.

Despite their 'poverty' they bought CDs, games and a Nintendo DS for themselves, but nothing for Nephew. They would EACH buy about five pounds worth of sweets in the local shop EACH DAY, quite happily eating three or four mars bars with lunch and a family sized bag of malteasers after dinner. SIL constantly told me that Nephew 'wouldn't eat that' about anything. DD was two and a half at the time and was trying to be fussy about her fruit and veg, so I was giving her every kind of fruit and vegetable I could think of and I would naturally not exclude Nephew. Despite SILs protests, Nephew would happily eat almost any fruit - adored apples and plums from our own fruit trees, as well as all the other lovely things that madam DD was turning her nose up at. But SIL would LITERALLY take food from his mouth and tell me he didn't like it.

She wouldn't play with him - she was a bit like an uninterested teenage babysitter, making the token noises for about five minutes, before leaving him on the floor while she played on her Nintendo, and getting ANNOYED at him for wanting her attention, shouting "NO! MUMMY'S BUSY!" and slapping his hands.

They stayed with us for about six months, and by the end of their time (Nephew was about 9 months old) he was talking a little and saying the things he heard me say a lot (HEWWO WORLD! APPLE!!! Moooooo!). He would come to me if he fell, and he and DD were in a quite cheerful routine in the mornings, and a quite unpleasant one in the afternoon

Although DP, and I and DD missed Nephew, we were all glad to have both my brother and SIL out from under our feet.

This was over a year ago, Nephew is now nearly two and his parents have had a council flat for over a year (which is where they moved out of our house to). Saw their flat for the first time this week and was horrified. Their flat is not carpeted and there are those horrible carpet gripping rods with nails sticking out of them all around the edges of the room. There is a large TV, an Xbox and a sofa. That is almost all of the furniture. Brother and SIL bought themselves a new bed when they moved. Nephew has a STAINED second hand one, with no sheets on. There was no furniture or proper curtains in Nephews room, but there was in their bedroom.

Their house was dirty. There were about half a dozen MOULDY cups of tea on various surfaces in the living room, in places where Nephew could easily knock them over. The floor was cold and dirty and there were bits of gravel and things on it - not suitable for someone who is just learning to walk! There were also sweet wrappers everywhere on the floor which are both slippery and a choking hazard.

He can still say very few words, and 90% of them are the ones he was saying or trying to say when he left here.

When I saw him, I took him a few apples from our garden. SIL immediately threw them in the bin. I don't care about how insulting it is to me - I am upset by the fact that I know Nephew likes them and they are good for him and she is depriving him of them.

Again, I feel like I'm being bitchy or judgey but I AM CONCERNED. I don't feel like they are looking after him well.

AIBUR to be extremely concerned by their behaviour?!?

OP posts:
tomhardyismydh · 12/01/2011 13:09

"Im surprised there isnt a health visitor involved who would have picked up on these very obvious causes for concern. Is the child not seen by one OP?"

I would not be surprised one bit my dd seen the hv only twice, home visit from hospital and 2 yr check!

ApocalypseCheeseToastie · 12/01/2011 13:11

Actually, i'm a lot on the lardy side, I could take it as an insult the dcs aren't tho.

They sound like a pair of spoilt bastards, maybe the shock of having their child taken away may make them both grow up and give their child they life he deserves

counttothree · 12/01/2011 13:14

You've done the right thing OP don't doubt yourself for a moment.

To those posters who thinks she should do more to help, please remember that she and her dp have helped - they had SIL etc to live with them for 6 months and buying sheets wouldn't be much use if the parents never put them on the bed or put them on and never ever washed them.

From what the OP has said this sounds like the SIL is not just unreceptive but is downright hostile and what is taking place is the physical and emotional neglect of this child and the family need some help to parent him adequately.

OP, there is no need for you to speak to HV, SS will speak to HV and GP as part of their investigation and in all likelihood they will form part of the plan to support the family.

MommyMayhem · 12/01/2011 13:14

The thing is, ACT, although it all sounds dreadful to us, SS are used to far, far worse. In fact, by SS standards, things really don't sound that bad. I know it is hard for most of us to appreciate that fact. For this reason, it is highly unlikely that the child will be taken away. Unless more facts come to light.

Thelastnameleft · 12/01/2011 13:20

Count, I was implying the Op should speak to the HV, I was pondering as to whether a HV had visited recently. If there are any concerns they would have flagged them to SS as opposed to her having to do it.

Tomhardy, yes this is quite normal, I myself didnt see much of the HV following the birth of both of mine. They do make exceptions if there are conerns though and I know HV's form an intergral part of CP plans for under threes.

Thelastnameleft · 12/01/2011 13:20

Doh..I meant "wasnt implying" not was...

Talk about sentence fail Blush

ApocalypseCheeseToastie · 12/01/2011 13:23

I know, poor boy. God knows what emotional impact it will have Sad

KaraStarbuckThrace · 12/01/2011 13:25

DeeleyBob - thank God your Nephew has you, your DP, DD and DM in his life.
Absolutely you did the right thing.
I really hope the SS do something about this awful situations, your SIL sounds unhinged frankly and your DB is a fucking idiot for allowing this to go on to his DS - and by the sounds of it, has contributed to this poor child's neglect. Because let's face it is neglect if you can buy your self a large TV, and x-box and a new bed but can only afford a stained second hand bed for your child.

counttothree · 12/01/2011 13:26

The thing is that the HV won't be able to discuss things with the OP. The HV will just say to the OP that if she has concerns then she needs to contact SS iyswim. It's SS who investigate situations like this and, yes, they will have seen much worse but that doesn't mean that it's okay not to intervene in this situation.

tomhardyismydh · 12/01/2011 13:27

yes they do Thelast, but only of concernes are raised.

Mommy, I dont think you are giving the message that ss will go round and say never mind far worse happens lets just ignore this. as for ss taking dn away, hopefully that is avoidable anyway if parents enagage but there needs to be initial assesment and intervention. Its not a on size fits all...unless the child will die we wont remove them or help, thats not true. Prevention and early intervention is what is required.

I would be interested to know your line of work and involvement with child services?

DeeleyBop · 12/01/2011 15:12

For all who asked - she is twenty one and he is twenty three. (19 and 21 when they got pregnant. SIL was brothers first girlfriend. TBF I think he struggles to have a fair relationship with her because he's never had any practice. and she's bloody mental very controlling and abusive toward him too.)

I have seen them since they moved out, but only on neutral territory - this was the first time I'd seen their house.

mommymahem I have bought my brother and SIL sheets. My mother bought them a carpet - all they had to do was accept the delivery. This is not my 'first' move by a very, very, very long stretch. As I have said, I and my mother have both offered them money, furniture, practical help. They have bought themselves ornaments - SIL collects wrought iron faires and my brother collects swords FFS. They have both made numerous purchases of these, as well as xbox games, mobile phone contracts etc since they moved into their house. THEIR bed has sheets on it.

I mention SILs determination to get pregnant without any real thought for the consequence not because I particularly care for my brother, but because I don't think that this is normal behaviour. I don't think it is healthy. I do not think that healthy, happy, capable mother shouts and screams and swears at a two-year old with no provocation. I do not think that a healthy person screams abuse at someone who is trying to help them, then tries to leave the house in the middle of the night with an infant with no money and no place to go. I do not think that self-harm is normal or healthy, and I do not think that someone who will spitefully deny her child of nutrition is a reasonable parent.

I have tried showing her how one changes a nappy without four hands, a lot of screaming and an upset child; to no avail. I have left her on her own to learn, she has not. I have asked if she is Ok, if there's anything she would like help with, nothing. I have told her point blank she is doing it wrong; still no change in behaviour.

Explain to me what the next step IS, mommymahem, if not the social services?

As someone observed, SILs mother is a bit useless - tbh I think there is a good chance that SIL and her sister were neglected as children. But my brother has no excuse, because we weren't. He is just too lazy and weak to argue with SIL, who throws massive strops and threatens to take nephew and never let my brother see him again. Hmm

Thanks monkeyflippers, I thought that. I know most children don't properly talk at two but I thought it was normal for them to know more than ten words? I only have the one and she was a chatterbox at two.

Thank you everyone who mentioned the HV - the HV told SIL when Nephew was about 2.5months old that she was a little concerned, but they moved to my house about a week later and there was only one follow up visit, when Nephew was about 8 months and living with me and seemed healthy, happy and developing.

HV did also mention PDN and suggested SIL see a doctor. She also said that Nephew was obese and that should be eating more variety (frozen chicken nuggets and chips were all he was allowed for tea when they lived with us) and SIL nodded and agreed until HV left and then said "HV is a twat, he's not overwieght (8month old in 18months clothes!) and refused to see the HV again.

What a strange comment, chaya! I have never told brother and SIL 'how unhealthy their diet is' for the important reason that I DON'T CARE. They are adults and get to choose. It is Nephew that I am concerned for, it is Nephew for whom I would like to see more variety, as his health visitor said.

My SIL has NOT said "I don't want him eating apples" she has said "he doesn't like apples". He does. If she were to say "not before teatime" or "not unless they're organic" or even if "not unless you used enough pesticides to kill everything that came near them", I would respect that. But she didn't. SHE doesn't like fruit and she is depriving him because of that. That is not normal or healthy behaviour.

From what I could gather from the SS yesterday and this morning, they had had someone raise a concern already. Possibly HV?

OP posts:
Thelastnameleft · 12/01/2011 15:33

Interesting that the HV was concerned prior to him moving in with you Deeley.

If there has already been a concern raised, it probably was from HV but they may not have acte3d on it (I'm sure you would have known by now if they had)

Assuming from your above info you have made the referral, did you ask to remain anonymous?

monkeyflippers · 12/01/2011 16:35

I think a few people are being a bit harsh towards you OP as it really does seem to me that you are just concerned about the little boy.

The mother is very strange by refusing to let him have fruit and veg. From the way you say she is possessive of him and going nuts if your mum referes to him as her granchild and also the way she won't let the boy have anything to eat that she doesn't like, makes me think the mum sees him as a little mini her or an extension of herself and not a person in his own right. Do you know what I mean? Did you tell SS about refusing to let him have fruit? What about the no bed sheets thing?

Do you think she has learning difficulties or something?

Stac2011 · 12/01/2011 18:06

Op i still believe you have done the right thing. I worked in ss (although mental health) and it is a duty of care to ensure your dn is ok. It is not their intention to remove children from their parents. You had said the hv was concerned about them moving in with you, why was this?

I dont think you could have done more as was previously mentioned to work with db and sil, they obviously think they are doing enough with their child. The chances are ss may be able to offer support to both of them. I had my son @ 19 and had pnd but he was clean, healthy etc but the hv helped me get a nursery place, talk to my family and help with other problems. I hope you get a positive response. Chances are your sil may be mad at you but you have to do whats best for dn. Sorry if post is all over the place i'm on my phone

NonnoMum · 13/01/2011 00:57

OP - don't worry if your SiL is mad at you (ad she will be) - just keep thinking to yourself that you have done it for you nephew.

Well done.

elephantjelly · 13/01/2011 01:14

I think you should call SS. YANBU but you do need to separate your feelings from the facts when presenting it to SS.

TheSydenhamSet · 13/01/2011 01:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Misfitless · 13/01/2011 01:22

They are incredibly neglectful. I'm sorry to be harsh but how the hell could you stand by and let this continue knowing full well the situation your DN is in?
I'm as appalled at you as I am at them. They seem to think what they are doing is acceptable - you KNOW that it isn't so bloody well contact SS first thing tomorrow for his sake.

I couldn't stand by and let the child of a stranger be subjected to this, never mind a child I have bonded with and who I love and who loves me.

We all have a duty to protect children - you can privately message me their names and address and I'll do it for you anonomously if you like. I'll pretend I've heard excessive crying and shouting whilst I walked past their block of flats.

Sorry to be so judgemental, but I suspect that if the shoe was on the other foot you would probably be posting some similarily harsh advice to me. And what's more, I'd know you were right and would thank you for your honesty.

Misfitless · 13/01/2011 01:28

TheSydenhamSet - I'm new and naive and haven't come across this before!

Are you the OP, or are you a genuine MN suggesting that the OP is a troll?

Please fill me in Confused

Misfitless · 13/01/2011 01:29

I hope you are the OP and then the awful situation isn't really happening. ALthough that would make you a bit sick in the head still...Wink

TheSydenhamSet · 13/01/2011 01:36

misfitless, i'm a poster commenting on the OP.

I feel rotten writing that, as of course it could well be true (unfortunately Sad ) but there are parts of the story that don't ring true for me. But it seems that everyone else accepts what's written so maybe it's just me...

Misfitless · 13/01/2011 01:45

Oh, thanks for clearing that up for me. I know what you mean now that you've mentioned it. The part that doesn't add up for me is not the abuse bit (it happens), but that someone who is clearly pretty intelligent would let that happen to a child that she knows, has cared for and loves.

pickgo · 13/01/2011 02:03

misfitless You clearly haven't read the entire thread.
The OP has been trying to help her B and SIL for 2 years. She had them to live with her for 6 mths. She has only recently visited them in their own home and seen the state her nephew is living in.
She has already reported her concerns to SS and is waiting to hear of their response.
Don't think this is a troll thread - it makes sense if you read it all!

Misfitless · 13/01/2011 02:21

Thanks pickgo - read a lot just not all 124 messages (shame on me).

You are right - I missed out the bit about OP contacting SS. I'm so sorry OP - how shitty of me. I take it all back and hope there is a happy ending.

I did read the bit about her only just visiting, them living with her for 6 months. Having lived with them for 6 months, though, you wouldn't even need to visit their flat to be able to make an accurate educated guess at the level of squalor and neglect he was being subjected to. The fact that OP had only recently visited flat for first time is irrelevant, then.

Still the main point is that SS have been informed, thank goodness.

pickgo · 13/01/2011 02:24

Agree with main point - but I would hesitate to report a member of my family just as OP did. But you certainly couldn't do IMHO on the basis of 'an educated guess'. It's a very serious thing to involve SS and you need to be certain of facts IMHO.