to have removed DD when H was shouting at her?

[HarryDan]

DD is six, and can be provocative/challenging in her behaviour - deliberately will full, if you will.

At dinner she poured (quite alot) of salt over her food, even when asked not to. Dh snapped at her then told her not to eat it, she then dipped food in it and continued eating (i.e, ignored him).

I know how frustrating it is to be ignored by children, but he began shouting at her. I asked him to leave it, but he continued, so I left the room as I didn't agree with him, but didn't want to undermine him. He wasn't continuously shouting, but his voice was raised.

I went upstairs and heard him tell her to finish her dinner - she then went behind his back (while he was loading the dishwasher) and threw most of her dinner in the bin. The entire thing wasn't covered in salt, so it was perfectly edible, and we don't really take kindly to wasting food.

DH lost the plot and began screaming at her, really loosing his temper & at this point I felt he was taking it too far, came back in the room and intervened. I took her out of the room, and told him that he was being a bully, and that he shouldn't scream at anyone like that. You wouldn't scream at your family or colleagues like that, so it's not OK to scream at a six year old like that :(

He told me to fuck off, I was very calm and took her upstairs and told her that although she must listen to him (re: food etc) its not OK for anyone to shout at her like that. She was really upset (which she can play up when getting told off, as all children do) and DD1 was also in tears. I could see they were both frightened.

DH has gone out - I assume not talking to me, and is obviously vexed that I undermined him as he feels she doesn't respect him,

My question is, did I do the right thing?

Aw, where I come from - having a crack means having a smack.

I think there is a misconception about what children can and cannot tolerate. If you spend time with your children, love them and, above all, have fun with them, they are tough enough to accept you as a human being.

I have seen lazy parents who never smack, always use the naughty step but avoid interaction with their kids whenever possible (the ones who are always in their designer gear gossiping together in every playgroup) and some fantastic playful parents who are always interacting with their children and teaching them new things. It is frequently the latter group who accasionally "lose it" with their children, which may even, horror of horrors, involve giving them a smack. It is those more human parents who, in my observation, have the politer, better behaved and HAPPIER children.

You cannot judge any parent by one event but have to do it in totality. To bring it back to this post, if the father is normally a good and involved father, then shouting at his daughter when she is behaving appallingly is absolutely fair enough.

Ria - if he ever does that on the stairs - just give him a little nudge backwards.

He has the right to discipline yes, even IMO (shoot me now) smack his child if thats what works in your house, however 'losing it' is a different matter altogether, just like those who smack their kids in a fit of fury rather than a last resort in control kind of way.

FGS do people really not tell their dc no anymore? I wouldn't have accepted the OP's DD's naughty behaviour at the dinner table from a 3yo, much less a 6yo. If the OP's DD had wilfully ignored a teacher at school in this manner, I'm sure a lot of the responses here would have been different.

IMO by 3yo, dc are more than capable of being told no, they cannot have salt on their food, and to accept the fact that they have been told no.

The OP was wrong in the first place for walking away from the table when her DD was being naughty, she should have warned her DD that her behaviour was unacceptable, and warned her that if she continued, X sanction would happen. Then if the DD continued with the naughty behaviour, X sanction should happen. That way the situation would never have escalated to the point it did, and the OP's DD wopuld have seen that mum and dad were united in not accepting her bad behaviour.

When she walked away, I can fully understand why her OH became frustrated. While he did not react appropriatly, neither did the OP in the first place.

Hully - Would you honestly accept behaviour like that from a 6yo? If a 6yo is able to behave like that at the table, how do you take them out for food, or trust that they will be well mannered and well behaved at the lunch table at school, or if they go to a friends' house for tea? It isn't that hard to instill good table manners in dc, and for dc to understand that no means no.

IT IS NOT ALL RIGHT TO HIT ANYONE, ADULT OR CHILD. VIOLENCE IS WRONG.

"behaviour like that"

She was just experimenting/mucking about with the salt. No biggie. Just take the salt away if she can't stop and tell her she's a bit silly. Defuse, don't escalate.

Hully what about the tipping her dinner in the bin? That's when the OP's DH started yelling. Bit more than just mucking about with the salt.

The Op has said the DD "messed around with salt" two nights on the trot, and she had been warned about it the first night.

That isn't being silly or mucking around, it's being willfully naughty. She is 6, she is being naughty at the table, 2 nights on the trot. She needed to be shown her behaviour was unacceptable. If both parents had shown this very clearly, the whole situation would not have got out of hand.

The child knows full well she's not allowed salt, because she's been told. Presumably then, she's still doing it to

A) get a rise or

B) get some salt

Hully's way achieves her not getting a negative rise, and also not getting the salt. But I sense some discomfort from some with the idea of not only not telling her off, but giving her some positive attention

You could just wordlessly take the salt away, but then she might try to escalate the situation by getting angry about it. Hully's way stops this happening, and ensures she doesn't get the salt. In other words the child doesn't get what she wants, but no-one's unhappy in the process

So I agree with hully. I do not practice this as often as I should though

Loudlass - I think the point is that the child would probably not do this particular thing at school or at a friends. I am assuming that's because it's precisely because they know it's naughty, and at this age therfore is unlikely to push it with anyone else. We all know that most children behave worse with their parents than at school

I don't believe you should EVER smack.

All it does is teach fear and humiliation.

Edam - no I don't think the OP's DH has behaved at all well. I'm not condoning his behaviour at all. But I can totally see how, when you're ignored time and again by your child and then your wife gets up and strops out of the room, you might feel a wee bit riled.

Haven't you ever lost your temper with your children? I have - not proud of it but there are times when I have totally overreacted. I do always apologise but that is for me to do - I wouldn't thank anyone for telling my DS that I'm a horrid nasty bully and taking him away before I'd had the chance to deal with things.

Interesting debate round the 'no' vs laughing it off stance. I think the latter does make for less stressful relations and a generally respectful atmosphere (and weirdly is a lot harder to do)

Oh yes, of course I've lost my temper and am not proud of it at all. As I said below, difference is I recognise when I've gone too far and apologise to ds. Rather than telling dh to fuck off in front of ds.

Think Hully's dead right about defusing the situation, not escalating it. Not always easy to do when you are stressed and wound up, of course.

I used to disapprove of my stepmother because she would get very very cross with my littlest sister when she was being naughty. I was a teenage know-it-all and was good at defusing the situation and coaxing little sis out of naughtiness. It was only years later when I had my own ds that I realised, to my shame, that it is oh-so-easy to be effing Mary Poppins when you are only staying for a weekend or a holiday - not so easy when you are the primary carer who has all the household drudgery and day to day responsibility.

edam - yes, it is harder. I think when I'm stressed I get more rigid and authoritarian.. I think that comes more naturally to me than playfulness.

I notice that my mum is different with my DSs (she's brilliant) than how I remember her being with me, for the same reason

edam - but I wonder if the OP's DH didn't feel that he'd been totally undermined that he'd have responded that way? I can imagine I would also behave like a petulant child in that situation. Just as well I'm a single parent really and never have to do these kind of negotiations.

LeQueen - you are right, of course. I noticed that when I was going thorough a particularly shouty phase that the DS would look at me like this a lot and I'm sure they lost respect for me then.

lol @ BALD thinking the Vs was the same as the bird.

There is a v good Flight of the Conchords episode on this if you want further instruction.

"I think an awful lot of people now confuse fear with a healthy respect for their parents."

Absolutely.

A happy child gets lots of attention and positive reinforcement, but also knows the boundaries and knows there is a meaningful consequence (i.e one that WILL make them unhappy) if they cross them.

JamieLee,

"In other words the child doesn't get what she wants, but no-one's unhappy in the process"

But why is that a good thing? The child in question has been told she cannot have salt (presumably several times) and explained why not. She is clearly pushing the boundaries and being naughty. She is probably looking for her parents to reinforce the boundaries. She will be unhappy short term but happier generally, in the sense that she knows her parents care enough to go through the unpleasantness of disciplining her.

Lary

She doesn't get the salt though. The parents "win". She knows she's being naughty, the parents know she's being naughty but no confrontation happens in the process