Or is this woman dead annoying? (Dragon Mother article in Sunday Times)

[ragged]

Amy Chua article in the Sunday Times -- I can't link to the ST version, but I think this Wall St. Journal piece is good-as identical.

I'm in 3 minds about it:

1. It's just one persons's perspective
2. It's a blatent brag fest
3. It's factually wrong and perhaps even defamatory in so many ways. If 25% of humanity are ethnic "Chinese", they can't all be high achievers, can they?

Related discussion here, too.

Spenguin, definitely got the 'Malaysian' vibe. I think Singapore is quite unique in terms of Lee Kuan Yew and his political legacy. It does breed a certain arrogance in that the Singapore way is best or right that is based more on brainwashing than understanding of how other systems might function differently and well too.

There is no one correct way. I suppose we all muddle through and pick out the best of both worlds, I'd hope.

From the looks of things, unsuccessful Chinese children end up recycling our dangerous waste, working on production lines dealing with dangerous chemicals to produce expensive and cheap tat for Westerners. They do not complain and live unfulfilling lives, get fired for trying to change things and return home in disgrace unable to provide for elderly parents or commit suicide.

Also article made ref to difference in attitudes by chinese parents and westerners to their childrens future responsibilities to them ie in terms of looking after parents... I'd want to see my child happy, employed in job that hopefull they like and enjoy, having relationships, friends, having reasonable std of living, etc .. I wouldn't regard it as their duty to look after me - thats my responsibility...

From the points in your OP I don't think you've actually read the article.

and calling her a bitch because she is talking about a very different culturally relative way to bring up children? How awfully ethno-centric and arrogant you must be.

but blb is there not an arguement that one persons cultural way to behave may be another persons cruelty- is there an impartial (not sure thats correct word) definition of cruelty - one or two things in article would conceivably apply, imo in any case...

when children question and are allowed question things that their parents take for granted as being "right".. quite often over time thats how behaviour that once seemd reasonable and correct becomes regarded as not reasonable..

What I still wonder about is how behaviour descirbed in article would be if applied to child who was not academecially able...

She's talking about a way of child-rearing that millions of people find acceptable. You think its okay to shout bitch and accuse cruelty because it doesn't match your western ideals?

Equally she could look here and say those parents are so cruel, they don't bother to push them to achieve, they don't care enough about their children, they let them watch tv and not take education seriously. How would you feel if you were accused in such a way?

truthfully = I'd just disgree with them! As she would with me, given her article. Donth think there'd be any offense on either side.

I'm still curious about children brought up in ways described in article who are not particularly academically able - how do they do and how do they cope with such parental pressure?

I think this is really interesting discussion actually

so would I I just really hate women jumping on other woman calling names based on one article that they've barely read. Just.Not.On.

God forbid that a child should be successful AND happy.

I pity any child of that author.

ll31 - from someone who was brought up by an Asian mother, I'm really trying to give you the 'real perspective'. However, truthfully, I've just never personally known someone of that ethnicity to not be academically able.

I know that sounds crazy.

Children who don't go on to university etc are not thought well of - that applies to those who only go to a polytechnic. Their parents would be, secretly, criticised.

However, there's a different thinking. A child who didn't go to university would NOT be looked down upon as long as that kid had shown effort. If s/he was just a slacker and lazy, then society would deem there hell to pay.

This thread reminded me of prog on few months ago re was it child geniuses - there was one couple who had two sons who expected them both to be actuaries when they were adults and who were directing their studies etc towards this.. I thought, they were very dedicated parents and lovely kids but I also was amazed at idea that parents would choose childs profession / job - these children were I think maybe 11 and 13 or soemthing similar.. again it shows difference in parenting styles - I'd be trying to have my child get exposed to / experience in loads of diff things so hopefully they'd find what they liked and move towards that or at least find reallyt good hobby! But htose parents had made decision for children.. Even now with child 10 yrs I think idea that I'd detemrine career would be laughable to child!

I suppose its down to maybe idea of education = ie is it only about academics or is it about more - ie including likes of sports, drama, etc and should it be enjoyable/interesting or should; it be all about being the best.........

It's about 'being the best' for everyone's sakes.

The parents want the best for their child...they think that this will lead to the child's happiness - and, when incorporating psychology into it all, it works. Condition a child to believe that getting A+s and being top of the class is praise-worthy and noble, society celebrates that etc etc, and of course that will lead to the child feeling happy...at his/her accomplishment.

Wilhemina, they believe if you are successful you will be happy.

I bet she pities your children.

Dione - do you have any experience of the culture? I do, and the situation you describe is fiction!

But spenguin, I'm sorry but surely not everyone is receiving As etc - or is there a real dumbin down in chinese school rpts cos schools give out As to everyone?? And then what you say re kids who go to plytechnics etc being looked down on.. And condition child to getting A+s being praise worthy - but they can't all surely be getting A+s?? so the kids with the A pluses are happy - what about the ones who've put in effort but because of ability don't get As.. if they all get As I think thats unlikely to be honest...

No, I meant to say that I personally don't know a non-academically able Asian child, but I wished that I did so I could help express an 'insider' POV.

The ones who don't get As will be your 'everyday' person - working in retail etc etc. Someone has to do certain jobs, and others, other jobs. It's still a society! They're aren't all crazies!

The dragon mother, really.

In my (limited)experience of Chinese culture the daughter is not taught to play violin or piano. China is a developing country with a culture of when daughters get married they go to live with their in laws, and will look after them, not their own parents when they become old. That is why a son is/has been more valued in one child families, because they will stay with you.

Most Chinese people are still living in poverty, in China or as overseas Chinese.

There might be an upper class Chinese who say only violin or piano, just like there might be an upper class German mother who says the same thing. Most Chinese are poor and will always be poor...most Germans are relatively rich.

The article is nonsense because if you ever go to China you will be served Costa Coffee/Starbucks/MacDonalds, or given a taxi ride by a Chinese person. Who is richer than a Chinese farmer/factory worker.

tho my question was really what happnes the ones who don't get As as children - given the pov of the original article are they made to feel useless, incapable etc as children which I think is sad. And again going back to article the idea that they can't engage in non academic activities in school seems sad...

again presumably its down to difference in attitudes - I want my son to enjoy childhood be happy etc as well as do well academically and happiness and doing well academically I probably rate at similar levels. Article seems to suggest that doing well academically is all that matters. Is this down to maybe a westerner view that your experiecne in childhood has massive effect on yr life - and therefore higher value placed on "happiness" as child...

Also

No, I don't think they are made to feel bad...if they genuinely can't do something e.g. a learning disability etc. Emphasis is on effort - if your kid has no desire or is lazy, oh boy! You're in for it.

For the parents of an e.g. dyslexic child, it's more about face. The parents will be likely to sugar-coat to other people or try and find another avenue e.g. sports.

The worst thing would be to have others think you weren't trying - it's like an upwardly mobile kind of a thing.

Even if you were getting straight As, if your mother knew you were easily attaining them, she would still be cross. It's about potential and utilising it, I think.

Onus is on academia as paramount, but not the be-all-and-end-all.

Gosh. Well she certainly did an outstanding job of putting herself across as completely bonkers.

DH has an office in Shanghai staffed by mainland Chinese. He actively avoids recruiting university graduates, because in his experience they have to be told in minute detail at every.single.step.of.the.way what to do. People who have been to vocational colleges rather than universities tend to be better with flexible thinking and initiative, in his experience.

This woman's approach might work if you have the right raw material to begin with.

Having lived in China and HK for a decade, I've always felt sorry for Chinese children who are average or perhaps just a little bit above - no amount of parental bullying and sawing away at the violin for three hours a night is going to get you into Harvard if you've got an IQ of 102.

I disagree, I have personal experience of perfectly ordinary children exposed to music early. Most can attain a high standard in the end if they practice.

In the West we seem to subscribe to the 'myth' of genius. Your IQ is not a life sentence, you can get smarter. Read Bounce by Matthew Syed, Outliers & Carol Dweck for details.

ninedragons - I have lectured at business schol on MBA programes and have noticed that very definite Asian traits in teh way students respond.

Typically, most MA teacng involves a lot f lecturer student intereatcion. Nothing is a certainty, there is a lot of dicusison. Asian students just do not feel comfortable with that at all. It is very noticeable. As spenguin says the just cannot formulate an arguement in many cases but prefer to just sit and take careful notes and then copy out an answer from a text book. That is a product of how they have been taught all their lives.

That said, we use a similar approach with our DSs as blueshoes. More push and rote learning woth our chldren than teh school specifies. We know what our chldren are capable of and the school is reluctant to push them to that limit - so we do it.

I am not Asian and neither is my DW - but high academic achievers for poor backgrounds.

I wish that she could be reinterviewed in 10 years time. I would bet money on her whole attitude being a complete disaster.

beenbeta, i concur - My dh (and myself in previous childfree life) always had issues with consultants from both Asia and India, due to the infalibility of authority....they do exactly what they are told, without question, and without applying a sense check.

Give the same problem to a western consultant, they will pick holes in it before they start, often stimlating a lot of discussion on whether X or Y functionality would be included, or wheher cost savings could be made by doing things in a different way.

Now in the IT world, western consultants plan the work, write the spec, design the testing phase....and send it to the other side of the world to the coders who cannot think, but hey, they got straight As!

Volumes of educate compliant workers may make a good economy, but what quality of life? Why music when there is no joy or passion in playing? Where is the art? Where is the sense of respect for the humanity of the trolley pushers and road sweepers?

I prefer the Western way.