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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Or is this woman dead annoying? (Dragon Mother article in Sunday Times)

260 replies

ragged · 09/01/2011 15:53

Amy Chua article in the Sunday Times -- I can't link to the ST version, but I think this Wall St. Journal piece is good-as identical.

I'm in 3 minds about it:

  1. It's just one persons's perspective
  2. It's a blatent brag fest
  3. It's factually wrong and perhaps even defamatory in so many ways. If 25% of humanity are ethnic "Chinese", they can't all be high achievers, can they?

Related discussion here, too.

OP posts:
Spenguin · 10/01/2011 18:53

lalalonglegs - perhaps, however, can't really comment as I never had any experience of that.

Sure, there are bound to be a few nutty nut mothers who do the pushy thing, but I don't think it's exclusive to that style of parenting.

Did anyone catch the writer on the radio today? Just wondering if she said anything new/different?

ISNT · 10/01/2011 18:55

Well, our next door neighbours carried out a form of this, because they were (are) very religious (and not chinese). They used "physical punishment", their children had to be obedient, dress modestly, work hard, etc etc etc.

Their children are what you would expect - they are quiet, and studious, and docile. They seem fairly happy. They love their parents. And that's the point isn't it, children love their parents, and trust them. And so if their parents carry out unusual parenting and tell the child it is in their best interests, the child will believe that. They love their parents.

Spenguin · 10/01/2011 18:57

Then again, the writer's kid did the same thing - 'rebelled' - and she stopped.

Do you know what religion they were?

ISNT · 10/01/2011 19:01

Our neighbours? They are Christian.

In fact there is a strong authoritarian/disciplinarian approach in many religions, when they are practiced in a more fundamental way. This sort of behaviour is by no means peculiar to the Chinese. It has always happened, and continues to happen, all over the place.

What has changed in the UK for most people is that children are now viewed as people rather than property, which is a good thing, I think.

Xenia · 10/01/2011 19:15

I don't think the fact that someone says it did me no harm, whether that be their father having sex with them when they aere 6 or their parents beating them with rods determines if an activity is objectively and morally right. We are well beyond that thankfully.

What is interesting is that she is prepared to show conduct which some of us may have done but would have done because we lost our temper and we wished we hadn 't, as if it were a great rational way to behave and what all p arents should do to their children and also some things which could cause social services to knock on the door. Most people feel ashamed of conduct like that rather than seek to sell it in books. Now she is putting those girls in the public domain in a way which I don't believe teenage girls can actively consent to and again ignoring their feelings never mind putting in the public domain her husband's lack of parenting, his sexism and neglect in leaving it all up to dragon mother.

5Foot5 · 10/01/2011 19:34

I too read today's follow up in The Times and was heartened to find that the daughter's had eventually rebelled and the mother had to back off.

Apart from all the points already made about abuse etc, what really annoyed me was the fact that this mother made the decision about what subjects and skills the children should excel at regardless of any natural talents or inclinations that her daughters might have had.

I believe in encouraging your child to work to their best abilities and I don't see anything wrong with healthy competition. Also I have, and sometimes still do, insist that DD does more music practice. But I think that you should also take in to account where your DCs strengths and interests lie, especially as they get older.

"Banned from drama and games. The only instruments they were allowed to learn were piano or violin. They had to learn either piano or violin"

WTF! So in her opinion those are the only instruments worth playing are they? Narrow minded woman!

roseability · 10/01/2011 19:40

Thank goodness the last few posts make sense! Better articulated than I could manage

Lamorna · 10/01/2011 22:11

'And so if their parents carry out unusual parenting and tell the child it is in their best interests, the child will believe that. They love their parents.'

Don't you believe it! It is very complicated, they love their parents but they will rebel when they get the chance. You only have to read posts on MN to see how many people have problems with their parents.

blueshoes · 10/01/2011 23:10

The writer backed off when she realised her methods did not work. She acknowledged her daughter was happier with that. I think that gives her some redeeming qualities. Maybe not really a Dragon Mother after all?

One cultural difference about Chinese parents is that they might demand a lot (like this woman, whose methods I don't all agree with) but they also tend to give a lot. As a child, you are aware that your parents made a lot of sacrifices for you. It is ingrained in the culture for the parents to sacrifice and for the child to be grateful.

I know some of you looking at this through the lens of a western perspective will think this is akin to emotionally blackmailing or guiltripping a child.

But look at it in another way, my parents (Chinese) don't draw the same distinctions between their lives and their children's lives, in the same way my dh's parents (Londoners) draw between theirs and his/his siblings. I suppose in that sense, the western ideal is to foster independence. But the eastern ideal embraces familial obligations and mutual support.

One stark difference in education - there is hardly any idea that as from age 18, a Chinese child is expect to stand on their own 2 feet. All this talk about tuition fees, if it was in my time, you bet my parents would be thinking of mortgaging the house or doing anything to raise that money. The older generation routinely offers childcare to their grandchildren in the way no western parent would tolerate as an imposition on their own lives. One of my best friends in Singapore 'fosters' her child out to her mother during the week because she is so busy at work. It is also expected that the children will inherit and these is less of the view that retirement is for personal enjoyment. If anything, my mother would make sure we are all provided for even in her death.

So whilst you might not (for good reasons) agree with the methods, please also understand the cultural context with which they are entwined.

mumeeee · 10/01/2011 23:25

Not all Chines Mothers are like this. I really don't agree with this Mother yes it's good for a child to work hard and aim as far as they can. But not everyone can acheive A's. I think it actually is bad for a child to expect them to achieve A's and B's when they really are not capable of it.
I fo agree that children shouldn't give up as soon as they find something dificult but if they have tried over and over again and it is really stresing them to cary on then I would let them give up.
Children need time to be children,relax and play. They should not be being pushed all the time.

BingBongSong · 10/01/2011 23:44

Blueshoes - great post.

You have eloquently summed up what I have been ranting about in my head all day!

Spenguin · 11/01/2011 00:19

Seconded!

sakura · 11/01/2011 05:50

Spenguin
It's called an abusive cycle. The "it never did me any harm" argument you're making. Rather than admit our parents were wrong in smacking and hitting us (and therefore opening a Pandora's box of emotions) a lot of adults prefer to adopt their parents' worldview and repeat it with their children. It's a lot easier for a start.

sakura · 11/01/2011 05:53
sakura · 11/01/2011 05:59

smacking kids teaches that violence is okay, that big people can hit smaller people- nothing more than that, really

MmeLindt · 11/01/2011 07:42

Great posts from BlueShoes and Xenia.

emy72 · 11/01/2011 08:57

Blueshoes, it is exactly the way you describe in Italy too, so it is not an eastern/western divide.

The gulf between Southern Europe and Northern Europe in the upbringing of children is huge. I think we have more in common with Asian people than British people to be fair.

Xenia · 11/01/2011 09:58

The objections were to what she mostly concentrates on in the book - the force of the pushing of the young children and methods too. They were not to the concept of families looking after each other as people do in the West too.

It's interesting because all parents have to draw their own line. At one extreme you'd never make a child get up never mind go to school or you'd pick a school like summerhill where the children decide if they go to lessons. At the other you'd drill them for 15 hours a day. We all find a line which we draw and hopefully most of us manage to ensure it is within the law and hopefully also in a way that ensures loving relationships between the people concerned.

I don't see my children are property. I see them as a privilege to have around. Of couse to an extent I and their genes make them what they are but also they are different from me and fun to have around.

On Children
 Kahlil Gibran

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.
HattiFattner · 11/01/2011 10:32

I love that Xenia

AbsofCroissant · 11/01/2011 10:40

Awesome poem Xenia.

Should give it to my parents (as an FYI).

Xenia · 11/01/2011 10:49

Thanks. It was written in about the 1920s I think but still relevant today.

The lines "You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you" are pretty appropriate to this thread.

The author was from the East too, not the West.

Litchick · 11/01/2011 12:12

blueshoes that was a very thoughtful post.

I do think there is a huge gap between how different families are, be they western or eastern. I certainly see a difference in how my middle class frinds bring up their children than how my extended family do.

There is a lot more interconnectedness and mutual dependency in the later. Grandmas, Aunts, uncles, sisters all help out with child care and rearing so that everyone can keep a roof over their head and look after anyon ein need.

Among my middle class friends the idea of independence is far more valued. Parents live miles away from grown up children and each are busy getting on with their own lives.

Neither is wrong or right, but culturally very alien from each other.

MmeLindt · 11/01/2011 14:10

Xenia
That is one of my favourite poems. I read it at my Goddaughter's Christening.

I love the lines:

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.

It sums up my parenting philosophy, if I can claim to have such a thing.

ahbbc · 11/01/2011 14:35

Hi, it's Aoibhlinn from the BBC World Service's "World Have Your Say" radio programme here. (Apologies if you have seen this post on the other thread.)

Since some of you were discussing Naomi Wolf's appearance on our programme last week, we thought you might be interested to know we'll be featuring this "Chinese tiger mum" topic tonight at 6 p.m. (UK time). If you'd like to take part or contribute to the debate, I have set up a thread in the Classified: Non-Members/Media section which gives all our details.

Thanks
Aoibhlinn

Lamorna · 11/01/2011 17:42

I also love the poem and think every parent should be handed it at the birth! The best lines are:

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.

Something that many parents simply don't understand!