Or is this woman dead annoying? (Dragon Mother article in Sunday Times)

[ragged]

Amy Chua article in the Sunday Times -- I can't link to the ST version, but I think this Wall St. Journal piece is good-as identical.

I'm in 3 minds about it:

1. It's just one persons's perspective
2. It's a blatent brag fest
3. It's factually wrong and perhaps even defamatory in so many ways. If 25% of humanity are ethnic "Chinese", they can't all be high achievers, can they?

Related discussion here, too.

a quick anecdote from my own experience - i set my kids the task of filling in a comic strip based on 'Mr Happy'. the first three boxes had pictures for them to colour in, the fourth blank for their own picture.

Most kids based their pictures on the story we read out from the book - but a few went off on complete tangents - so long as the English used was good, i gave them positive marks. my assistant asked why, because some of them (the creative ones) were 'not right'. She accepted my explanation, but had o write explanatory notes to that effect (ie, the point was good english) so that the parents wouldn't question my judgement.

it should be emphasised that this lack of creativity is a cultural thing, not a racial one - my kids had loads of creativity. but then, they'd been in an English school up to that point, not a Taiwanese one.

But creativity isn't as valued in Japan the way it is here.

And throwing in genital mutilation to the debate is just silly. Its like the Godwins Law of this angle. Shouting at a child to play the piano is not the same thing as cutting off a part of their genitals, unless I've missed something.

And there has to be some amount of creativity there anyway, Nintendo anyone?

I remember coming home to say that I had passed a test with 98% score.

My mother said, "What happened to the other 2%"

She meant it as a joke, but it still stings almost 20 years later.

exactly BLB, creativity is not valued and other things are( they're big on manners and etiquette, for example). You won't get any job without impeccable manners and etiquette.

It is not silly.

You are arguing that using extreme methods, abusive methods that would have social services at your door in UK, are acceptable because of the cultural differences.

Ok, genital mutilation is a bit extreme as a comparison but the emotional damage that Amy Chua is inflicting on her daughters is likely to cause them problems when they are grown ups.

God is she raisings child or training a dog

Creativity exists despite the culture. Creativity will out itself sort of thing. It's certainly not conducive to creativity.

Off on a tangent here, but basically I agree with the point you made that just because something is different does not make it better or worse and it is important to try to understand things through a cultural lens

..And on that point -

Whenever China gets brought up in the press, there are always apologists claiming we are 'blinkered' or 'racist' or pushing Western Superiority in some way. But often that is rubbish - it isn't rascism to say that an education system that demands total conformity has serious problems and destroys creativity. It isn't a blinkered view to refuse to accept the human rights abuses (multifarious) of the PRC government - a culturally Chinese person still knows House arrest is an abuse of their rights, and a punishment beating for writing a political article in mildly disapproving terms still hurts regardless of your culture. It isn't pushing Western Superiority to think that the vast dire poverty lived in by the majority of the mainland Chinese population is a shocking state of affairs that the always corrupt and often uncaring government is not addressing effctively enough - if at all.

In this case, I think most Chinese parents would think this woman was a beast, and her husband almost as bad for allowing her to mistreat her kids like that. PoorChinese peopl often lack the mans to treat their children well- this woman has no such excuse.

Read it again. I didn't say it was acceptable. I said you should make some tiny attempt to look outside your own cultural viewpoint, which it seems you haven't.

Extreme abusive methods? Again, what has she done which is on a par with holding down a child and slicing off part of their genitals, usually without anaesthetic?

I haven't read the book (I'm guessing neither has anyone else on this thread) so how you feel so confident that they will be emotionally damaged screw ups is beyond me.

it's not racist to criticize, but it's important to recognize that your views are influenced by your own culture
I'm not talking about FGM and house arrest, but a good example would be the amount of men I know in Japan who were allowed no other option than to follow in their father's footsteps

I mean, to a westerner, being forced to stifle individuality to follow your parents' path would be seen as wrong, but there is a whole host of cultural nuances at play that a westerner cannot understand

..and as for Japan - my borther has just come back from a year of work there (he has also worked in China and Taiwan)

the work culture is utterly repressive.

people at his company are fired on the slightest whim - the person who replaced him was fired only three months after my brother left (meaning the job had had three different people in the same year)

the work culture where you perpetually fear for your job is not an innovative one - no-on dare raise their head above the parapet.

the company (as sakura points out) s typical of Japanese firms in employing overseas talent for the non-administrative roles.

Foxconn - the manafacturer of the Iphone amongst other things - was a much nicer employer by far, with a more gentle attitude to all staff. They also employ foreigners in expert capacities, as do many of the tech companies out East...

a dsproportionately high n%age of he worlds patents are still filed by UK citizens, even though they may work overseas.

I am fully able to look aside my cultural viewpoint. Having lived in several different countries, lately in Geneva, I have a wide range exposure to different cultures.

I did not compare it to genital mutilation, I commented on the downplaying of abuse due to the other culture.

Extreme methods, sometimes abusive methods - and putting a 3 yo outside in winter because she will not concentrate on a piano lesson is abuse. No matter which culture she is from.

Forcing a 7yo to practice a piano piece for hours, without food, water or a toilet break - is that not abuse?

I apologise if I overlooked you saying that you did not find it acceptable, it is a long thread and I skim read parts of it.

Amy Chua is being interviewed on Radio 5 Live sometime in the next 1.75 hours.

Yes, but some things that are different are worse like striking children and smacking and like FMG and like some forms of emotional abuse. That is the really important point on this thread - what is objectively wrong in relation to children and whatever culture it might appear in. So would be sexist parenting and a heap of other things.

I never said forcing a child to get something right without letting them go to the loo even when they need to is as bad as FMG. I did though make the important point that there are objective moral wrongs of which FMG clearly is one and strictness with chidlren usually isn't but can be particularyl when it also involves physical but also some emotional abuse.

Most strict parents are different but not morally wrong though.

We must always guard in the West the right to object. The sensible of the Chinese would want us to. They are not even allowed to read a free press.

There are also plenty of things English parents do to chidlren which are morally and objectively wrong too.

I think that that those of you who admire her would take grave exception if anyone, other than yourself, treated your DC like that. I know a teacher, in the days when it was allowed, who got wonderful results but some DCs wet themselves or vomited before they went in his room. Would you really want this for your DC?

Just to temper the 'Asian parent' labelling a bit here.

If you go to any of the top private and state schools in the South East of England you will see pushy white parents doing similar things with young children. They will not be so up front in admitting it but the secret hiring of tutors, drilling DCs through Oxford Reaidng Tree Kumon maths and dozens of 11+ practice papers, learning Cello at age 5 it all goes on.

Its about competition for limited resources and a certain mindset of succcessful parents who value academic achievment, good jobs and money and there is a high intensity of that in the South East of England. It is where the best highest paying jobs are and a high density of high achieving parents who work in those jobs. They push their DCs as hard as they push themselves and the Prep schools and best state schools deliver that too.

"you're all talking about it being damaging. You are looking at through your own cultural veil that you can't see past. Yes to you it is damaging. Yes to your mind it is bad for self-esteem etc. But these are things your culture has deemed to be very important, and not all cultures agree with you. Others might say how damaging of you to pander so much to your silly notion of self-esteem to the detriment of their ability! If you know they can do something and you let them fail so you don't hurt their feelings, you have failed as a parent. In fact its cruel."

BLB, you're making it sound as though this woman threatens her kids with no sweets for a week if they fail. She threatens them with some pretty hefty shit; outside in the cold, no birthday parties for 5 years? I think that many of us wouldn't really condemn a parent for pushing their children to perform well academically. That isn't why she's being mocked. It's the methods that she uses to achieve it that we're appalled with.

yes, some things that are different are worse, I think those methods of child-rearing in the article (leaving a three year old in the cold, and not allowing a seven year old to use the toilet) are definitely abusive

Very good post, Xenia.

I would be - and am - just as scathing of British parents who feed their child junk food and allow them to become obese, as I am of this woman.

As to the whole "Asians are so pushy parents" debate, the pushiest families I have met have been American.

One little girl in DD's class last year had an afterschool class every day, on her school free Wednesday she had three classes, on Friday she had two afterschool classes. Even Saturday morning was not free.

My DD wanted to have a playdate with her friend, but could not because she had no time.

Interesting article.

Despite being quite, let's go with strident, in her parenting methods, she does make some good points. I totally agree with her that some "western" parents are way too soft on their children, either trying to be friends instead of parents, unable/unwilling to instill any form of discipline. I get the feeling with some parents I know that they are afraid of their children (even toddlers), whereas you couldn't ever argue that this woman was afraid of hers - afraid of them failing, but not afraid of being disliked or unpopular.

I think that in China and Chinese culture, there is such an emphasis on some parents (particularly poor immigrants to other countries) to achieve, because the outcome of failing is so appalling.

I didn't say she was doing a great job. What I'm saying is that a lot of comments on this thread sound very much like "I know best, thats wrong that is, don't care why they might do that, me wrong, bitch wrong".

I haven't said once that I agree with her. I'm saying that some peoples attitude towards it stinks, IMO.

exactly Abs, the outcome of failing is so appalling. We have to look at western child-rearing in the context of a post-industrial society

Although... that way of thinking reminds me of the foot-binding and the notion that the parents did that to little girls "for their own good" to secure them economically by enabling them to find a husband

That's because you're too infatuated with thinking that people are criticising Chinese culture by proxy of criticising her. I am criticising her as a mother, couldn't give a flying crap where she's from. I'd be as disgusted if she were from Grimsby.

I'm sure that what she says is right; Chinese parents are by nature, more pushy than we are. However, I doubt that all chinese parents use the weird methods that she does.