Or is this woman dead annoying? (Dragon Mother article in Sunday Times)

[ragged]

Amy Chua article in the Sunday Times -- I can't link to the ST version, but I think this Wall St. Journal piece is good-as identical.

I'm in 3 minds about it:

1. It's just one persons's perspective
2. It's a blatent brag fest
3. It's factually wrong and perhaps even defamatory in so many ways. If 25% of humanity are ethnic "Chinese", they can't all be high achievers, can they?

Related discussion here, too.

Bingtata - I agree with you that there needs to be a middle ground. I also agree with stretchmummy that maybe some have a sneaking respect for her.

In the beginning of the article there was a list of things Chinese mothers/parents dont allow. At least half of them I we dont allow our DSs to do and we also expect high standards from our children. In summary, I read the article and thought that some of what she says is actually correct and that Western parents and eduction system has become far too soft if that is the right word to use.

However, I would also say that Chinese and Japanese education systems emphasis on rote learning also has its weaknesses. It leads to a lack of creativity. Fine when you are copying Western technology with a low paid compliant workforce but not for for product innovation as HattiFattner rightly points out.

I thought she came across as ludicrous, stupid and yes, a little abusive. Achieving through your children or using them as proof/vehicles of your talent is odd, wrong, selfish. Just horrible. It was in the main about her own vanity and little to do with her children.
I agree with her general point about not being too soft on children and that teaching them lessons in life on determination and the joy in accomplishment is sound. She is however missing the most vital lesson of all for any naturally gifted or intelligent kid - you cannot be top in everything and you will not be top in everything. Everyone brings their own skills to the table and you cannot win everytime.

no but you can become a yale law professor, like her, and do better than 95% of the world economically and by social standing.
i definitely have a sneaking respect for her methods.

Do american professors get paid a lot more than UK ones then? Professor wouldn't even make it to my top 50 'careers I would like to have list'. Partly because the pay is garbage.

While I would never take her approach, I was interested in the idea that Western concern with damaging self esteem can actually lower self esteem in itself - if we give insincere praise children can come to distrust what you say. On the other hand, having confidence that your child CAN do something if they work hard enough at it instills in them confidence in their own abilities.

I am Chinese by ethnicity though not from China or UK. Singapore, to be precise, so perhaps the middle way?

I do/allow almost all the things the writer does not.

What I do notice (not from comparing with other parents but from what my dd's teachers tell me as the ideal approach to, say, homework), is that I am prepared to push my dd a lot harder than the school encourages. I will not hesitate to tell her she is slacking if she is capable of better work or more concentration. I make her re-do homework that is not up to standard. I make her do things even if she started crying because I think it is within her capability and she is just trying to get out of. And I have a lot more appetite for rote learning than the school requires.

But I agree with Hattie's point: this method taken to extremes can kill creativity. That is the visible difference between the product of a 'western' education v. 'eastern' education.

Nowhere would I go to the lengths the writer does. My children do lots and lots of free play and role play and sports and have been involved in every nativity going since nursery. Dd has only just started learning a musical instrument but she hardly practises and I frankly don't care.

This seems to be the ultimate in deferred gratification. Nobody gets to have any joy or happiness in their lives, ever. All pleasures and enjoyments are deferred until some (unspecified) point in the future. There is no sense of storing up happy memories for the tough times that come to us all as we lose those we love.

The only motivation seems to be fear (for the children) and money/success (for the parents).

Terribly sad.

I think you have summed it up perfectly piprabbit. There is no point in living.

blueshoes - similar ethnicity to you. Mother is from Singapore, father is a Londoner.

She was very strict with me whilst growing up - basically the mother in the article, but I could have sleepovers and whatnot. I thank my lucky stars to this day that she smacked me, made me do extra maths etc etc. It allowed me lots of choices (due to academic achievement) and, from that, creativity an happiness. She gave me the strongest foundation she could. No pressure was placed on what I was to do with that foundation. It was more about giving me a choice.

Father was also a ballbreaker. When I was 9, our DT prep was to draw the facade of our home and give a basic floorplan etc. He came home, looked at what I had drawn, ripped the page out and made me do it all again...to architect standard! Hated it at the time; thank him for it now. He emphasised trying. I would be scolded if my effort grade was anything less than an A. If attainment was an F, he wouldn't care - the latter applied to a half-sister. She was dyslexic etc. He didn't love us any differently or treat us differently.

This 'they need their childhood' line...I can't connect with that. They can still go and play, but they won't be kids in 30 years so playtime should be a reward, IMO.

So, I don't think the writer is unreasonable - I evidence my opinion by stating that I will bring my kid up in the exact same way. It's not going to scar.

Sorry, ambiguity over the childhood/playtime line - if they play to much now, wth are they going to do when they're older?

[Extremist, but too onerous to go into specific examples and hypotheses at this hour)

I think she is great.
I think all the criticism of this approach goes along way to explaining why we are a nation of losers!!

DH was brought up using the antithesis to the Chinese method and he's always been adamant on bringing up our child the way I was brought up.

Also, China has recently emerged as the world's second largest economy and was barely affected in the economic downturn - the latter also goes for Singapore. I know where I'm placing my bet.

My DSis died very young. I'm sure that my parents would have found it much easier to come to terms with her loss if they could have looked back fondly on the nights of enforced violin practise, tears and tiny calloused fingers .

I hope this doesn't come across as insensitive, but I find that a little histrionic.

All kids cry and hate doing certain things.

Flip side: had your DSis reached maturity, would they not have been equally proud of musical ability, freedom to choose any profession she wanted?

Spenguin, I am thinking my dd is like you, Singaporean mother, Londoner father.

Glad you have not resented your parents' high expectations of you.

My parents (both Singaporean and not true to type) did not take much of an interest in my studies. I think I could have been pushed much harder.

My mother did not hesitate to instil a sense of shame in failure. The ultimate threat if we did not apply ourselves to our studies was that we would end up a 'roadsweeper' (no benefit/welfare system in Singapore!).

Education is very highly valued. I always was told you must master the basics before you proceed to the next level and take a building block approach to learning. So as you say, we got a very good foundation.

That's true of the parenting style of any culture, no?

My mother did always say she wanted a third child...jokingly saying she may be able to then complete the 'Holy Trinity' of lawyer, doctor and accountant.

It's no concealed thing that Asian mothers are pushy - some will demand and coerce a child into a profession of their choice, others won't. Same for other cultures.

Generalisation and all, but Asian mothers will be pushy over everything. The writer may have scoffed at drama and PE, but Asian mothers I know wanted an all-rounder - music, academia and sport. So, in that sense, there's no limitation. The kid won't necessarily think 'I really wanted to be an accccccctor, but I can't just because I wasn't made to recite Miller for 5 hours a night'

Bottom line - mothers want to boast. And that's true anywhere you go, I think. If she can blab that her kid won the prize for acting, heck, that'll do.

Side note - my mother encouraged/pushed me to do Speech and Drama, so not everything was about geometry.

blueshoes - OMG! Your last list about the basic and foundations...that still comes out of my mother to this day! She does love her heritage - any excuse for a bit of Lee Kuan Yew! Whenever she would return home, she'd pick up maths textbooks for me...and some roast duck, but that's another story

I also got the threat..positive and negative reinforcement...'Spenguin, if you don't study hard, you'll end up pushing trolleys in the supermarket car park' - scared the heck out of me. At the time of saying, we were at Safeways in the car...whilst a gale was blowing and this frostbitten teenage boy was breaking his back collecting the trolleys.

I think the writer of the article is just racist, despite her protestations otherwise. She is simply saying something that has been known for a very long time: Authoritarian Parenting produces academic results.

If academic results are of utmost importance to you as parents, then listen to her. If you consider life to be more than academic achievement, then ignore her and her racist comments.

squigy, the only professions worth training for (in a lot of Singaporean Chinese parents' eyes) are doctor, lawyer, accountant, engineer, economist/banker.

The subjects that lead to these degrees are all hard subjects, like Mathematics, the Sciences, Economics. I can see Chinese parents telling their children to take these subjects to avoid narrowing their choices at university (and of course their dcs will go to university), rather than taking the subject of their interest at GCSEs or A'levels.

That is not a bad thing IMO, seeing how so many children get bad careers advice.

I think culturally, Chinese are more practical, less sentimental and willing to work very hard.

Is she comparing Chinese and Western though or isn't it Chinese immigrant families and Western families? I'm confused

spenguin, 'roadsweeper' in Singapore equates to 'pushing trolleys at Safeways' in UK. Brilliant!

Funny how your mother's holy trinity lines up with my list.

I assume you did not grow up in Singapore, whereas I did. The Singapore education system produces a certain 'received wisdom'. I like the way the UK education system produces children who are more prepared to question rather than want to just learn the correct answer. Terrible generalisation, of course, but did your mother ever voice this concern?

Nope, grew up in the UK. Have cousins who did grow up in Singapore so have a little bit of experience. Well, add to that being woken up by the frigging local school bell chiming when we go and visit family...

I think she was aware of what you speak of. She never really 'got' how I could do English or write History essays etc. Her strength seemed to be maths - things that are rote-learned. Having an opinion and arguing she found difficult to comprehend and still does - the woman can't argue to save her life!

Yet, given the authoritarian way of life and culture there, I'm not surprised it's all about 'accepting' and leaving the questions with the thought police. Utmost respect for their education system though - the utilisation of different languages in the classroom etc. Doesn't happen in Malaysia (did you always get the 'oh, Malaysia are awful!' lines?!)

Good point, partial.

I presume the writer herself is a Chinese immigrant.. Immigrants are known to have certain traits like obviously get-up-and-go. But (mainland) Chinese history is steeped in Confucianism which emphasises a lot of the things the writer describes.

One story I was told growing up as a role model for me to work hard: A man was studying to sit the Chinese Imperial exams so that he could become a scholar at court, which are notoriously difficult and competitive exams. He was so tired from studying so many late nights that he kept falling asleep. Finally, in an effort to keep himself awake, he took a knife and stabbed it into his thigh. This story is told with no irony.

My problem with her article in the link is that she appears to have no regard whatsoever for ability.. she'd some comment about how chinese parents would be unimpressed with A- and chinese children dont' get bs... I was trying to imagine a not particularly academic child or not particularly academic in a particular subject living with her ... not pleasant...

having come from a family (not chinese tho) where one parent would regard 95% test results as bad in that 5% was lost.. I woudl never inflict that kind of atmosphere on my child..

Having said that one prev poster made reference to making child do homework properaly, concentrate etc _ I'd do that certainly and if my child gets 40% on a maths test I'd spend time on maths certainly (and have done) during holidays etc but we'd be looking at 10 mins per day not hours...

Also I hate the idea that children unquestionably obey and agree with their parents etc and don't question things.. I'd regard ability to think and question as very important
Maybe at the end of day its each to their own, we're each products of our upbringing, might be interesting to see what her children have to say in twenty years..

finally I think the idea of not "wasting time" by taking part in shcool plays etc - I just think thats sad and I wonder does that indicate more than anything the different emphasis placed on childrens "happiness" as children by *(speaking v generally) westerners and adults happiness by chinese - in terms of happiness being achieved by great success.

But can't help wondering what happens the unsuccessful chinese children... how do they feel