to think that children shouldn't be screaming and running around in a library?

[PeeringIntoAFestiveVoid]

I have a feeling I'm going to get toasted to a perfect 'well done' shade of brown here....

I went to the library with DD today, and as we came in, there was a woman with a pushchair standing at the desk. As I was returning our books (not at the desk) and browsing, there were two children running around, screaming and shouting - the younger boy looked about three, the older boy five or so. They seemed to be with the mum at the desk, as she occasionally ssshhhed them (of which they took no notice at all). There was an older boy who looked to be six or seven, who joined in with the shouting and running from time to time, but wasn't causing the same chaos as the littler ones. The toddler had an utterly ear piercing shriek (I really can't stand shrill noises, so I realise I'm less tolerant of this kind of thing than many people), which he was letting rip frequently and very very loudly. There was a bloke there who I presumed to be their dad, as he sometimes spoke to them and called them over, but they didn't pay any attention at all, and he didn't push it or try to moderate their behaviour.

I joined DD in the children's section, and the two boys were running in and out of that area (then across the library to mum at the desk again). They were fighting, very vociferously, over a bottled drink, a fair bit of which got spilled on the floor. Several books were also knocked onto the floor. A couple of other children were sitting on the covered seats/cushions, and were intimidated by them rolling around, shouting and fighting. I was feeling very and wondered why the staff didn't point out to the mum that this wasn't ok behaviour.

As we checked our books out, the toddler screamed very loudly right behind me. I said "God almighty" and turned round, and the mum was walking past me with all four children. She said "What?? He's only two". I said "They've been running around screaming and fighting for the last twenty minutes. This is a library". She said "I don't care" to which I replied "Clearly; if you cared about other people, you wouldn't let your kids run around screaming and fighting". The woman walked off to the children's section.

I thought about what had happened, and thought maybe I'm completely out of sync with what's acceptable in libraries these days. As I was leaving I went to the desk and said "I know libraries aren't the solemn, silent places of the seventies, and I'm really glad about that, but is that now acceptable behaviour for children in a library? Am I way off the mark on what is ok?". The librarian said that the woman was joining the library, and that she had four children who'd never been in the library before (one was a babe in pushchair, obviously), so they didn't say anything to her. She looked quite at me.

I can see her point, and am wondering whether I was BU to say what I did. But to me, wherever I was I wouldn't let my children run around fighting and emitting ear-splitting shrieks, let alone in a library. I know it's not a sacred sanctum, but a library is supposed to be someone where you can go for peace and quiet to enjoy books.

So AIBU?

Sayjay

1. I would not be speaking to you, I would be speaking to your children, which is the whole point. Unless you had run amok in the library as well.

1. I am a mother of four with three of these so-called lively boys, two of whom have ADHD and one of whom is 20 months old. They simply do not behave like this is libraries because I expect them to.

If people learn to rein their kids in a little they find life can be a lot easier for themselves.

The 'Librarian' (and I would bet good money that she was not a librarian but probably a very badly paid library assistant) would not intervene for two reasons - firstly she would get no back up from her senior managers and secondly because she would be afraid of enduring a whole world of abuse from the parents.

I know this because it has been me. I was actually spat at in the face because I asked a mother to take her screaming twins outside to allow them to calm down after 20 minutes of screaming and crying. Once bitten twice shy as they say. I don't get paid enough to endure that kind of abuse...

Boffinmum: If you spoke to my son it would greatly distress him (ASD), even if you gave him a friendly comment, let alone challenge him - so I would intervene and ask you to mind your own business or speak to me.

"If people learn to rein their kids in a little they find life can be a lot easier for themselves." - I disagree, but your entitled to raise your children by your own philosophy - not to impose it on others.

pah i popped into the local library today with dd's. it's newly revamped, cost few million £'s and is now full of cafe and silly shelving and partitioning.

the lovely old children's reading room has gone, now there's a cafe full of skypers and burnt toastcakes with perspex dividers seperating it from children's area. so my youngest dd was constantly trying to make a dash out of doorless area and older dd whining for a sausage roll.

in the middle of the younger children's book section are computers, 2 teenagers were sat playing online poker and swearing loudly into mobile phones, 1 teen had an unlit cigarette hanging from lip.

it doesn't feel like a library anymore, it isn't user friendly either. i feel sad my dd's can no longer have the library experience we enjoyed before. i can tolerate a dvd section bigger than blockbuster to generate income but i don't buy the argument this is necessary progress

It depends if you mean full on running or just sort of toddling about. Toddling about fine, crying fine, talking at normal levels fine, tantrumming fine. Shouting and proper running not fine.

Sounds like you're a stuck up cow TBH. The poor woman was probably already harrassed without you sticking a big fat judgmental nose in too.

Libraries love children, not like you by the sounds of it. Luckily ours has a separate floor for the childrens section and my daughter of two has regularly run riot with other toddlers in there. The staff don't bat an eyelid, why would they? Just kids having fun.

Lighten up.

Trubert If you can't stop them from running around why don't you hold their hands, have them on reins or in a pushchair?

zoezebraa How old is DS1? Could the same be applied to him or is he too big for a pushchair? If this is the case I would still be inclined to say to him you behave or you will have to hold my hand/wear reins like a baby.

Rev084 I'd be tolerant of running around in the area where they have the soft squidgy seats, those tables with the beads, big cuddly animals etc but not around the aisles.

sayjay Would you be annoyed if someone spoke to him to tell him to stop doing something but in a nice chirpy way or do you not mind because people wouldn't necessarily know of his SN but just ask them not to and explain why?

Does DS get distressed if people just say hello to him, ask him his name/age etc?

And for entirely these reasons, do I find myself weighing up the pros and cons whether to take my ASD pre schooler along with his 13 month old sister to the library/shopping centre/soft play on these rainy days or do we become prisoners in our own home so as not to upset other members of the public.

It's hard enough to get my son to go anywhere where there are unfamiliar people anyway so I'll be damned if I am going to let anyone else tell me if I should or shouldn't take my son to a public place. No-one knows which child has special needs or is just playing up for their mum so a bit of patience and co-operation from all sides would be much appreciated.

Haven't read the thread, but OP, you sound like a grinch to me. Cut the woman some slack. 4 kids, trying to engage them in a new and improving activity, long paperwork. - of course it might be tough.

I guess they won't be going back - well done.

my mum was shushed and shooed in a library when my boisterous 3 year old got a over excited. She won't take the kids there any more. They sit in morrisons cafe instead now, when the weather is cold, eating yum yums and drinking fruit shoots.

Having read some of the responses on here I'm thinking that maybe library cutbacks aren't such a bad thing. If people don't think they need to control their children in them then they're not really libraries anymore are they? More like internet cafes with ignored children screeching through them.

Tasteslikepanda - exactly
people don't go into libraries any more and are served by librarians
they're served by library assistants which are the same as shop assistants

I've never been in an Internet cafe with children screeching around
at the end of the day libraries promote Reading for people who can't afford to buy books, they get books through the inter library loan service that you can't get elsewhere, if you think that's not important then good for you. Soon you'll have to travel further to get to a library anyway or download ebooks instead

Well, yeah. We need to cut back on libraries, because there are insufficient users. No one really needs them now we can get 99p books from ASDA, and most people have internet to find information they need.

And the op clearly indicated that the parents were trying to control their children - just ineffectually in her opinion. And ineffectually parented children should stay out of libraries.

REVo84

It's not the local park it's a LIBRARY.

Library assistants are not the same as shop assistants. They are trained in Library work. Although it is a shame there aren't librarians in every library any more.

As compo says, they get books through the inter library loan service that you can't get elsewhere. Libraries promote reading for adults and children. They provide many other community services. Not quite the same as a supermarket.

You can get 12+ books a week for free from a public library
do you spend £12 a week on books from asda?
And the range of books in a supermarket isn't comparable
and if you get all your info for your kids homework on the Internet that's pretty sad. Libraries have all kinds of non fiction/ reference books you can't get for 99p in asda . Jeez....

They're the same as shop assistants in terms of pay

and specific training is given in libraries just as it is in shops

'Well, yeah. We need to cut back on libraries, because there are insufficient users'

er no, the cuts are because councils don't have the funds

you also can't buy large print books from supermarkets. The elderly and children form the greatest numbers of library users
books on cd aren't affordable to buy for the elderly

One of my local libraries runs a 'Time for Parents' session every few weeks, where parents can drop their kids off with library staff for stories and singing. The kids library is in a separate room, and kids are made very welcome. Mum/Dad then gets half an hour to choose their books, open a library account, pay their fines etc, before picking the kids up. Works brilliantly.

The other (much smaller, but closer) library tolerates kids, but they don't have the resources to do something similar, so when I go there, I prepare for war. DD has any and every thing I can think of that will keep her quiet entertained, and as soon as she kicks off, we check out any books I may have been able to grab and leave.

OP, does your library not do online sign up? I did it for me and the DC, and it was much faster. Wonder why the mother of 4 didn't do that?

Libraries are important but so many people are suggesting that it's perfectly fine for children to run around screaming in them that it sounds like that's not what people want. Do those of you saying it's fine for children to run around shouting think that the people trying to quietly read/study should go elsewhere so they can continue to treat it like soft play? Maybe getting rid of all those shelves of adult books that just get in their little ones way would help?

Does anyone else note the irony: the OP, who is irate about a strangers inability to control 4 children, couldn't control herself sufficiently to avoid making what even she admits was an inappropriate interjection.

Let's stack up: stranger completes required administration; her children are audible and visually distracting, rendering the OPs queuing experience wholly unsatisfactory.

The OP permits herself to make a loud, inflammatory remark. This remark is ostensibly directed toward a 2 year old who is leaving the library. The action is entirely unconstructive: it is directed at a non verbal child and the issue was in the process of self resolving. The language used is offensive to a broad base of religious affiliations, and provides no basis on which to improve either the childrens' behaviour, or the OPs library experience.

pathetic how full grown adults can't control themselves in public, even while their children are watching

not at all unreasonable, it's fab when kids get so involved in listening to stories that they shout out and scream at the exciting bits... but the point is they are reading, which is all a library is for at the end of the day

A child screamed really loudly right behind her so she said 'God Almighty' and turned around. Hardly 'not controlling herself in public'.

Good post, Sylvanianfamily!

Am shocked at the earlier poster who said that a fellow library user asked where the machine gun was in reference to a noisy toddler.

I'm as middle class and "nice" as anyone on here but I actually think I would hit someone who said that about my child