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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Circumcision but no Circumcision Party

446 replies

thefruitwhisperer · 29/12/2010 10:58

DP is turkish but he and his family were all born in the UK and dont practise Muslim traditions apart from Eid. My DP is the only one who does Ramadan and thats only every couple of years when he can be bothered. They celebrate xmas and easter etc.

Ive agreed to have our month old baby circumcised as thats what DP wants and I agree that there are plus points, but Im an atheist so I would like all religious connotations taken out of the situation. I think thats a fair compromise (esp as its going to be quite hard for me, Im really scared) and I would like it to be a quiet decision between DP and I. His family will know the baby has been cut, why do we need to celebrate it in a party that is more for the sake of getting presents than it is anything else. I dont want the gifts.

DP has admitted that the only reason his family circumcise their babies is for social reasons, everyone has it done, everyone has a party, everyone gets money as gifts. Ive compromised on the actual circumcism, and I really really dont want to have a party. I will feel as though Ive sold my babies foreskin. Add to that, if theres no religious reason for it, why are we even doing it - and the only answer I can see is cultural/social/peer pressure reasons. I just dont see any reason to celebrate this pointless operation (obviously only pointless in this instance, I can understand where it is necessary medically or in religious circumstances) other than to show off that we have conformed and then get some money. Children who have their appendixes out dont have parties. I mean, I could equally argue that we have the baby christened catholic, my family all are and dont go to church.

AIBU to have the operation but draw the line at a party? I think DPs family are all going to be disappointed with me. And his grandparents apparently disowned his uncle for the same thing.

OP posts:
ScarlettWalking · 29/12/2010 14:00

A horrific thing to do to a child. A perfect baby and you want to mutilate his genitalia and put him at risk of a horrible infection.

The babies don't make as sound when it is done initially because their bodies go into shock. It is so cruel and barbaric I simply can't fathom how any loving parent could do this to a born baby.

firstforthought · 29/12/2010 14:05

My husband and I are both Muslim and our situation is kind of vice- versa. He doesn't want our 2 month old DS circumcised whilst I do (sort of)?. I struggle a lot as regards to how much it is necessary. His family are Muslim and he has told them point blank that our son will not be circumcised much to their chagrin. My family are not Muslim so no issue there. I would hate for our son to grow up and feel angry that he wasn't circumcised as a child. DH has said if I get DS circumcised he will have me done for assault! "On his head be it" is the current train of thought!

coccyx · 29/12/2010 14:13

Why would you do this to your son, regardless of a flimsy following of a religion. Still not valid in my opinion. He is YOUR son. Don't just go along with it

TheFeministParent · 29/12/2010 14:15

Have you ever met a man that is annoyed that he's not circumcised? Besides you never know in ten years people may have progressed enough to not insist on mutilation of children.

ForFestiveSake · 29/12/2010 14:25

I wouldn't do it under any circumstances.

But if you are considering it you're doing so for very flakey reasons IMO. How will anyone know he's had it done?

You say it is for social reasons but as far as I am aware it's not a common thing in the UK?

TheMeow · 29/12/2010 14:31

My dh was circumcised for medical reasons when he was 8 years old and he has said it was the worst pain he has ever suffered.

I would never inflict that on my ds unless it was medically necessary (and dh wouldn't let me even if I wanted too).

Why not just have a party and skip the circumcision?

QuintMissesChristmasesPast · 29/12/2010 14:31

No way would I mutilate my baby.

If I had made the choice to live in a muslim country, with a muslim man, practicing his muslim faith, then circumcision would just come as part and parcel with this.

BUT, your son is born and bred in the UK, with an atheist mother and a not really very muslim father, so you are doing your child great injustice.

Are you the poster whose husband and his family had decided you are not really married because you have not taken on the muslim faith and done a muslim ceremony (you were married in a registry office), and your partner is trying to force you to convert?

I think I remember a thread......

TheBibiJesus · 29/12/2010 14:35

Do not allow someone to hurt and mutilate your baby. Simple as that. Wrong imo and I do not know how a mother or father can do it.

montysorry · 29/12/2010 14:36

janct, I think it was confirmed earlier in the thread that there is little chance of it affecting sex life or sensitivity if done as an older child or adult. The problems come when it is done as a baby.

We have a very close friend who is a consultant paed surgeon. He told us he does many circumcisions for medical reasons and even with excellent pain meds, the child is still severely traumatised and in extreme pain. However, shockingly, he told us he also performs far too much corrective surgery on boys suffering nasty complications following non-medical circumcision.

QuintMissesChristmasesPast · 29/12/2010 14:36

No, I think I am wrong, you are a different poster. This isnt you

thebrownstuff · 29/12/2010 14:49

No value to add except to wonder why everyone on MN gets so hysterical over the nexus of evil- circumcision/ear piercing/bf.

AnnieLobeseder · 29/12/2010 14:53

I'm so pleased to hear about your change of heart MickeyLee! I hope your son will thank you.

ManateeEquineOhara · 29/12/2010 14:59

MickyLee - I am really pleased to hear this. It is a good decision to have made.

ChippingIn · 29/12/2010 15:01

I can't see why anyone would allow this to be done to their son, but even more so when DP has admitted that the only reason his family circumcise their babies is for social reasons and I just dont see any reason to celebrate this pointless operation... POINTLESS OPERATION

Would you have your childs toes cut off for 'social reasons'??????

Would you let them do any other POINTLESS OPERATION?

FFS

ManateeEquineOhara · 29/12/2010 15:08

I hope the OP comes back soon otherwise this thread is going to take her ages to read... And I am interested to know what she will say in light of the comments.

MrsDrOwenHunt · 29/12/2010 15:21

my ds was circumcised when he was 18 mths under general by a surgeon at gosh, they agreed to do it as ex h is muslim and ds also had an undescended testes so they did it whilst they were done, glad in a way that happened coz there was NO WAY it was being done in exh country by some random bloke claiming he was chosen by allah to preach the bloody word, tbh not an issue because not with exh anymore!

NetworkGuy · 29/12/2010 15:44

MickyLee - sorry you left the thread at that point. Hope you do pop back and have a read...

"I know I am making the right decision and I also know that others will not understand them so I am off the thread."

It sounded to me like a decision based partly on your husband's religious views, partly on how you foresee your son fitting in at school, and partly concerning him serving in the military at age 18.

So while I can understand you thinking ahead (rather a long time period) to when he could be serving in the military and be 'forced' to be circumcised (for no logical reason - otherwise all men would be, and evolution would have made it "the norm" if it had so many benefits) and wanting him to avoid unnecessary pain at 18, I am still rather unmoved by your reasoning before then.

Boys at school (here in UK) may still make one uncomfortable for having red hair, or wearing glasses, or being too tall or too short, and having a foreskin is completely natural in other countries, so you could break with what is expected as far as school.

Why would he be circumcised if he joins the military? Is it so overwhelmingly a nation of one religion that Christians are outcasts, persecuted, or stoned to death ? Would a Christian never be accepted into the military?

There may be issues concerning hygiene from earlier times that make it common in some countries for circumcision to take place, but it is another situation imposed on your child by the bad luck of being born in that country.

I feel pretty much the same about religion. At the age of 20 months, who is to know whether your son might one day choose not to be religious (assuming that is permitted) or to be a Methodist, Baptist, or join the Roman Catholics, or become a Buddist, etc, etc (sorry, too many to list) but the choice is out of his hands, and along with the expectation of following his father into Islam, goes his foreskin. If his parents were living here, and you were Muslim, but your husband was not, do you think you would still go ahead with this? Would you expect your child to be brought up as a Muslim, or adopting your husband's religion ?

I only ask, for balance, because it seems a rotten situation for an innocent child to have decisions made which could be life-threatening (on religious grounds, if he wanted to change to Christianity, perhaps) and cannot be reversed (sewing a foreskin back on might be possible, but by the time he can afford that operation, will be very painful and there should be no need to reverse a surgical procedure if it isn't necessary on medical grounds in the first place).

You've apparently resigned yourself to living in a country where religious beliefs are apparently strongly if not exclusively a belief in Islam, and mutilation is accepted and expected whatever you as a non-Muslim might wish for.

How sad that you are living there, where you seem incapable of avoiding this path. That's either strong love for your husband, with an absence of feeling for the free will of your child to make his own mind up as he gets older, and/or leave the country before military service is expected, if circumcision is one side-effect of that military service, or just having a stubborn husband who is inflexible and will not tolerate alternative ways of upbringing, and a willingness to accept that not every male is circumcised in the world, and there is no need to do so.

Showdown · 29/12/2010 15:54

We had our son done because DH is Jewish and felt quite strongly about it. I say 'we' but I would definitely not have done it if DH hadn't arranged the whole thing and insisted. I thought I was ok with it - then we took our darling baby home and I saw what I had inflicted on him... a horrible red wound, and I felt sick to my stomach. I felt like I had hurt my child. I was quite angry with DH and with myself for giving in to him. It's not a nice procedure.

NetworkGuy · 29/12/2010 15:57

See now that you came back and have postponed decision. Glad of that, and hope your husband is happy with that decision too.

Seems there was a 'third outcome' where there is more flexibility nowadays, a good sign indeed!

pranma · 29/12/2010 16:01

Most Turkish people have boys circumcised aged 5-8 yrs[my d-i-l is Turkish]nowadays it is done as a day case in hospital and afterwards-when boy is fully recovered the boy is dressed up like a prince,paraded through the town with music etc and there is a huge party with presents for the child.I dont think you should avoid the party if you are having the op but your way isnt Turkish.[My ds has a girl so was spared the row that would have happened when the circumcision discussion came up]

Alouiseg · 29/12/2010 16:03

These threads make me want to vomit.

What kind of imbecile deliberately inflicts unnecessary pain and suffering onto a child.

Take your cruel manipulative God and his brutality and inflict it upon yourself first.

Fucking idiots. Don't deserve children. Angry

MoonUnitAlpha · 29/12/2010 16:08

Showdown, you felt like you hurt your child because you did.

nurseblade · 29/12/2010 16:17

circumcision deaths:
www.cirp.org/library/death/

Porcelain · 29/12/2010 16:20

I'm going to share my thought process re circumcision to see if this helps.

DH is the third long term partner of mine who was circumcised. All 3 stated they would want their sons circumcised too. None of them were for religious reasons, usually cultural.

DH is descended from Spanish Jews, but is not Jewish himself (his GM was English and CofE so the line stops there) but circumcision is a tradition in his family. He is also a Gnostic Christian, and could probably tell me in enormous detail which bit of scripture its in and why, and I know he still has religious reasoning for it (apparently incidentally is is "something along the lines of" God making a mistake - but I didn't really feel like a lesson when he mentioned it Wink.

My original stance was, that I don't have a penis, and the father (any one of my 3 cut exes) did, so knew best. I faltered on this a little upon researching:

  1. watching videos of the procedure, I'm not squeamish, I did my degree in cutting up dead things, but the cries of the poor babies is harrowing.

  2. Understanding the side effects, even when it goes right.
    Did you know the reason it is culturally popular in the US is that it was touted in more puritanical times as a way to prevent your son from masturbating? I never understood why Americans refer to using lube to masturbate, but this is why, it's harder to do without a foreskin. DH also has sensitivity issues, which are apparently very common. He takes ages to climax which sounds lovely I guess, but it's actually damaging to our sex life (and my girl bits).

  3. Knowing the anatomy. The glans in boys is supposed to be an internal organ. It's not ready to come out and see the world until puberty, the foreskin is there for a reason.

  4. The risk of physical or emotional complications. An extreme case I know, but I once met a guy who attributes his very extreme genital piercing/stretching to wanting his foreskin back, so he started trying to stretch the remains, when he was a child.

  5. bullying, I work in a very white, rural school, and the ridicule a circumcised boy would suffer would be horrendous (as staff you do everything you can to prevent this, but you aren't there all the time). DH counters this by saying in the school he went to, intact boys would be the ones ridiculed, but then if my son came to me with that problem, asking to be circumcised, that's another issue.

What finally clinched it for me though, was being pregnant, and getting that incredible protective instinct. There is now way in the world I could allow someone to hurt my child, especially when there is absolutely no "greater good".

When we found out I was expecting a boy I told DH I didn't want him circumcised unless it was his choice, or medically necessary. He didn't like this, but I had the trump argument. He didn't feel he could fault me for wanting to protect our son, so he didn't try to change my mind.

I think partly for DH it is tradition, and also partly vanity. It's kind of hard to tell him that actually, I don't think it's any prettier (some circumcision scars are actually pretty ugly), I don't think it's any cleaner (washing makes you clean, not cutting bits off), and I don't think it has any real advantage, because it sounds like I am criticising him. And you really don't want to go criticising a man's penis. He also told me he was concerned about how he could do stuff like teach DS to wee standing up, or to wash himself, as he would feel out of his depth.

I do think a huge emphasis is placed on the difference, I'm not convinced it is much, I have "known" uncut men with less loose skin than some cut men. One of my exes I didn't even notice he was cut until we had been sleeping together for a week, and that was because of the scar tissue.

HettyAmaretti · 29/12/2010 16:20

MoonUnitAlpha Hmm did you really need to post that in response to an open and obviously remorseful posting from Showdown?

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