To think it is wrong for a surrogate to have a child for two men?

[Extremelychocolatey]

The men in question are Elton John and David Furnish.

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It feels wrong on so many levels.

Wonder how Posh and Hurley are feeling - they were banking on inheritances for their offspring from EJ.

I too feel a bit icky about the whole "money can buy anything" angle. However, as long as surrogates are willing to rent out their wombs and their health to others this is going to continue. I wonder about the egg donors - presumably as it was in the US they were paid. When I was younger I was put under a bit of pressure to donate eggs to "help other young women". I didn't as I read up on the risks but I would be be angry if I had donated and put my own health at risk to help other young mums that my eggs could be given to quite elderly women and older couples.

Who on earth was putting you under pressure to donate your eggs, Haggis?

I suppose I felt that the surrogate was very exposed as if she changed her mind it would all be so horribly public.

Would like to hear more from MumInBeds and others who have been surrogates.

It was almost 18 years ago. I had a friend going through IVF.

lingle, I'm not sure you can change your mind. Not in the US, anyway. We are doing IVF in California, and you wouldn't believe how much involvement the lawyers have. They cover every eventuality you could possibly think of. And once you've signed the contract, that's it.

Oh, Haggis, that's horrible. Actually, when we first realised we needed donor eggs, we were thinking of girls we knew who might be willing to donate their eggs and who needed the cash. My DH's is sister is flat broke, never wants children, fit & healthy, etc. I thought she'd be perfect. We talked it through for a few days, then decided to ask her. It wasn't until I had the phone in my hand to call her, that my DH shouted out, "OMFG, she's my sister! That's incest!'.

It has never occurred to us before that. Oh, the stress of IVF

Here's a few scenarios for you to consider:

Picture a doctors surgery, Dr addressing each patient in turn.

Mr X: 'So, you would like to freeze some of your sperm, in case your treatment for your life threatening treatment makes you infertile, or results in your demise, in order that your wife may in the future carry your child? I'm sorry I can't advocate that, You may not be here in 5 years time, and the child would be left fatherless, and if your condition eventually renders you disabled/bedbound, your child would have to assist you as you ail...'

Miss Y: I advise you to terminate your pregnancy as you were so drunk when you were conceived, you don't have a clue who the father is, and I can't imagine what you would say when your child asks 'who is Daddy?

Mrs W: I understand that you intend to carry on working full time after the birth in your prestigious job, and that you also plan to have two full time nannies, and send the twins to boarding school from the age of 7. I can't possibly allow this pregnancy to continue.

Mrs T: So your brother is gay, and has a partner? I'd advise you never leave your child with them as they may convince your child to be gay (never mind the underlying insinuation that because someone is gay, they are perverted/likely to abuse children)

What your response be to this doctors statements?

Being gay is not all about pink fluffy pianos. Open your eyes. A flamboyant, promiscuous lifestyle is an identity that some gay people adopt/portray. But that is only one side of the coin. Plenty of gay people are true themselves and don't feel the need to conform/act up to a stereotype. What about football fans? Some feel the need to act thuggishly, swill beer, sing racist taunts to conform to a stereo type. But I know plenty of footie fans who don't...

EJ and DF certainly have a high finance lifestyle, but remember you read in the press only the worst, because nasty, critical reporting sells the most newspapers. If you beleive everything you read/hear in the media then you are a fool.

If you have ever read any of my other posts you will know that I have worked in the media (TV) for years, and I have seen how twisted reports can be. One example I cite is the story of a famous lady who lost her child to cot death. A journalist interviewed her , with the tape running, and as she became more relaxed and the journo was joking with her, said 'Oh with 3 kids, I bet you felt like a good glass of wine on a friday night to relax' The lady replied - 'Oh god yes, with 3 kids we don't go out much - nothing like a few glasses of wine to escape all the stress once in a while'
Next day headlines :'Lady drinks to escape stress of 3 kids' It was all on tape, so journo could publish those words, and there was no comeback. But that's British journalism for you. Lady grieving for her baby, yet twisting her words made for a good headline.
I have worked with EJ and DF on many occasions. Yes, EJ can have a short fuse, but no shorter than many others I know. But he is an extremely caring and compassionate man, as is DF. One of our researchers (who EJ had had the briefest of contact with, making the programme) lost her baby to sids. Upon hearing this, he became extremely emotional and shaken, and asked if it would be an intrusion if he were to speak about it with her. She wasn't star struck, as she had worked with many celebrities, but I know that it comforted her that he cancelled his afternoons arrangements to sit with her in his dressing room and just talk. She told me how humble he was, and the depth of his compassion. We talked about it when the news of the birth emerged and her reaction was - 'What a lucky child - to have such a warm and caring figure for a father' This kind of stuff doesn't sell newspapers does it?

There was a young lad a few years back in the US who was dying from AIDS, and he was completely ostracised from his school, community. How many of you are aware that in the last weeks of his life, Elton all but moved into the family home, ditched his security, and supported Ryans parents, Lived with them like a family member, making drinks, helping them hands-on to care for him. He shunned any publicity at this time, as did the dignified family. He didn't feel the need to shout about what he was doing. Yes he may be a multi-millionaire, but he has a heart, the same as anyone else. Millions in the bank does not equal coldness of heart.
Sorry for the long post, but I had to put these things across. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and no-one is right, no-one is wrong. But my message is:
PLEASE don't believe everything you read/hear in the media, and be careful if you base your opinions on press reporting.

Sugarmouse

I wasn't insulted that you challenged me but that you implied that, because i stated that someof natures boundaries shouldn't be removed that I was advocating survival of the fittest and not looking after disabled children. That was extremely unfair and was exactly the opposite of what I was saying in my posts which was that life can't be made perfect for some people if it is at the expense of society as a whole. I would not think much of a society that placed perfect children as higher in the pecking order than disabled children and it was an incredibly unfair thing to imply. Saying 'calm down' does not put you in the right.

Emma

No one is saying all children are conceived in perfect cirumstances. Some of us are saying that to engineer circumstances where a child is born into an imperfect situation is wrong.

I don't have a problem with it. Far better for a child to be bought up with 2 loving parents (be that both men) than raised by a single parent on benefits on a sink estate.

Good luck Elton and David!

Thank you Emma for sharing that with us.

I'm late coming to this discussion, being on a sabbatical from Broken BMC. From what I've seen of DF and EJ, that child will have a wonderful life, filled with love, not thrust into the public's face and protected from the media. Good on them.

swanandduck - I think that it's more important to focus on the outcomes for the child than the circumstances of their conception . Plenty of children conceived in less than perfect circumstances go on to have perfectly good, stable family set-ups. But some of them don't. You have your own definition of 'imperfect situation', but I would suggest that the outcomes for many of these children are as good as the former category; there will be some for whom they are not - but it's hard to know whether that is simply statistical. So 1 in 4 people will suffer from a mental illness at some point in their lives - including the children of lesbian and gay parents, but this is not the same thing at all as saying that there is a relationship of cause and effect between the 2.

Pleased for them.Hope they will all be happy.

Having worked with HIV charities in the past I know that EJ is not just generous but very caring about individuals, traits that most people would want their children to learn.

What I am uncomfortable with, is the idea of entitlement that people seem to have around having children. I want one I will get one, I will do X Y and Z and know my kids will be fine with it, and wont end up feeling like Frankenstein as a teenager.

I have no doubt that this child will be loved and well cared for and nurtured, but for 9 months he heard a heart beat and a voice that are now gone, he must be such a confused little baby.

We can all decide what we want the children to feel like, but how many of us knows how it feels being raised by two dads, needing two mums to make you and perhaps having a sibling in the freezer?

Lenininexcelsis -

Right on the nail. There is NO perfect.

E and D have made the descision to have a family. It may not be others idea of perfection, but at the end of the day, the only one who can judge whether the shoes fit, is the person walking in them.

Knowing what I do, I should imagine that the child will be extremely well nurtured. No, E probably won't change every nappy, but then again - does every father?

You can't 'buy' loving interaction with children, and I very much doubt they need to. I remember DF on one show, alone in the green room, with another high-profile celeb's children, whilst the show was recording. We could see the room on one of the gallery screens. Watching him tear paper napkins and making them into bizarre wigs and hats for the kids, and then down on his hands and knees crawling round playing some game. It was hard to concentrate on the recording. Can you imagine if the press had got hold of the stills? 'DF makes X's kids fluffy and gay and encourages them to cross dress'.
Lots of heterosexual dads may have been a loss on how to entertain kids and be a fun figure, Doesn't make them bad dads, - a lot of people don't have that intuition; but hopefully have other qualities that make them superb parents.
I know that E and D will have measures in place to protect Zachary from press intrusion. My only hope is that they are effective, and they are safe from journalistic wolves who will stop at nothing to attempt to find the most trivial negative detail in order that they may exaggerate it, and slate the guys in order to sell a few thousand more copies.
So to the OP - are you BU? No-one can be judge whether you are. Your opinions are shaped by your life experinces, and this forum allows us to say what we feel, but as I said before, be careful your thoughts are not manipulated by the media.
It has taken me an age to read this complete thread, but felt compelled, as you can probably understand :-)
I hope, for anyone else who has read it through, your mind may have been widened, and you may have a greater understanding of certain issues, and may look at things from a slightly different angle after hearing from 'real' people (Us Mner's!) as opposed to just reading the snipey press!
In that vein, thanks to OP for getting the ball rolling and starting the discussion, it has been an interesting read!

This announcement puts paid to all my theories that the Archers' 60th birthday surprise storyline announcement is....

Helen Archer having surrogate baby for Elton John!

The next suspect is Ian and Adam...

"I think it's a bit shitty that you can be deemed too old to adopt, but are allowed to then create a new life, artificially, just because you are very wealthy. Either adoption rules need to change or age limits set on bringing a baby into the world by other means."

Yes, I think that that is a very good point tbh.

I also thought that some years ago EJ said he already considered himself too old to be a parent.

He´s actually older than my Mum was when she became a GP for the first & 2nd times.

But would DF also be considered to old to adopt?

Obviously hetero couples with big age differences have children taking the risk that the wife might be left alone with fairly young children.