To think it is wrong for a surrogate to have a child for two men?

[Extremelychocolatey]

The men in question are Elton John and David Furnish.

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It feels wrong on so many levels.

What do you reckon - Liz Hurley and the Beckhams as god parents?

Indeed the child seems to have got a bit forgotten in the PC argument.

"It's not the surrogate mother who's the main consideration, is it? It's the child."

Absolutely.

Which is why a reasoned, intelligent discussion on surrogacy is valid.

The OP, which states that the poster thinks it is wrong for a surrogate to have a child for two men is a pile of shit, and is surely not a serious attempt to initiate intelligent discussion.

The child will have an amazing life.

I think the child (Zachary) will have a fantastic life, surrounded by people who love him.

I am happy for Elton and David and i do wonder if this would be being discussed if they wern't famous...

All that i personally care about is that,

a, they will love the child
b, they can afford to support the child
c, they are in a long term loving relationship.

I really don't see a reason why these two men shouldn't be parents?! If a woman wants to surrogat for them and has thought long and hard about it then good on her for helping to peopl achieve a dream.

The world we live in if full of all sorts of family mkaeups the childs life will be no more confusing that alot of others out there and if he is brought up to know all about the situation then it shouldn't be a problem.

How do you know the child will have an amazing life, FP? Are you in the inner circle of EJ and DF?

Now instead of throwing your dummy at me, violet, why don't you answer the question I asked several posts back: what will Zachary's parents tell him when he asks who/where his mummy is?

Yabu

However it is wrong that some people are able to have children and then abuse and neglect them, or is that ok because it's a hetrosexual.

Can't see a problem with it tbh, other than they're age, i'm sure the child will be well cared for and have the sort of fun I can only dream of living with those two, good luck to em !

Violethill, you are obviously in love with the idea of yourself as some great intellect who's a whizz at intelligent debate. You have mentioned this about a hundred times on here in one form or another. I think we've got the message.

Personally, I think some of nature's laws are there for a good reason and we don't need a situation where 'anything goes' when it comes to conception. Therefore, yes we do need debate on this matter by the various experts. A forum like this is probably not the most appropriate place.

When I say 'this matter' I dont mean the EJ DF situation, I mean the overall issue of assisted conception.

Only just seen the announcement of Elton John, but I think fair play and good luck to them both.

I think if a child is well cared for, loved and happy surely it should not matter what 'sex' the parents are?

I have two same sex couple friends, why should they not have the fulfilment from children?

Amzing life is one way of looking at it. Everything money could buy and fantastic cleb friends popping round all the time.

Alternatively you could get one lonely little boy in the big house with the shift nanny, whilst his 2 (rather old) daddies are off throwing another party, wondering why he hasn't got a mummy like his friends.

Money and luxury is not necessarily the best route to happiness.

I just hope that the 2 of them have got the parenting skills to navigate this successfully and that little Zachary does indeed have a dream life.

FFS this is mumsnet a place where we speculate on a wide range of stuff. I would imagine the child will have an amazing life.

And no I cannot imagine the christening, Jeez don't make any assumptions you know nothing.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_parenting - so must say I was wrong and the studies are re both male gay and lesbian couples.

But looking at the studies for older parents the outcomes are not as good - So I'm still a bit on the fence and still think its the all round combination of extreme factors that's making me uncomfortable.

A normal life can be very different for many people though. Something unusual to me maybe normal and happy for another.

I don't think its fair to judge and what we assume to be unusual.

Extremelychocolatey - I have no idea what the child will be told about his parents. I would hope that these issues will have been carefully thought through, and responses prepared.

You seem to be confusing yourself here though, OP.

I have not argued that I think EJ amd DF will make great parents. I don't know them. I have no idea whether the child will have a great life or not.

I also have reservations about surrogacy.

The issue I have, is that if you wanted to initiate a discussion against surrogacy, why did you use the phrase 'for two men' in your OP? And link to that particular story? YOU are the person who has made this into an issue about surrogacy for gay male couples. No one else.

FWIW, I think there have been some interesting points made on this thread about outcomes for children raised in different circumstances, and about the issue of whether surrogacy is exploitation. Unfortunately none of these interesting points were made by you, OP. I think your op is very poor - why link at all to the EJ and DF story, as you quite rightly say that none of us are part of their inner circle, so we don't know what the details are of their particular case.

I think you made a piss poor judgement in your OP, then backpedalled madly and tried to pretend you're really interested in a general discussion about the ethical aspects of surrogacy.

But thanks to those who have made intelligent contributions to the thread.

typos everywhere today!

The exploitation issues have also been raised on the thread, riven.

And yes, you're absolutely right, the potential inequalities are a massive concern for many people

I wonder, if these two had adopted an african baby would people still be saying "oh how lovely" etc?

People are quite openly hostile to the idea of Angelina Joley/madonna adopting babies, even though AJ's children, for instance go everywhere with her and it appears they are being brought up to have as normal a life as possible, yet these two have essentially created themselves a baby through surrogacy and for some reason people shouldn't have issue with this? Presumably the baby will have a similar upbringing to many celebrity babies - being raised by the nanny while mummy and daddy, or daddy and daddy in this instance, continue to pursue their world-wide careers seemingly oblivious to the children left at home apart from when they're needed to fulfill their photographic responsibilities.

For me the problem with celebrities, any celebrities, adopting babies/using surrogates is that it seems too much like buying an accessory rather than an actual desire to become parents with all that involves. And often these celebrities are able to gain concessions that the likes of you and i are not, e.g. Madonna being able to adopt while most other women in her situation simply would not be, by virtue of the fact she has money and money talks.