To wonder if these riots will change anything?

[poshsinglemum]

I think it's getting totally out of hand. I think that HE should be accesable but that's what the students loan company is for-no? i have no money; I have a student loan. When I start to earn enough again I shall continue to pay it back.
I have no problem with demos but attacking a car etc is not helping the cause.

Agree with Somersmom

expatinscotland - I do prefer a system whereby instead of 45% of the population going to uni - which was never realistically going to be affordable, ,it would be a lower number but those that go, go for free. selection would be on academic grounds - is that not the case in most of europe?

students in scotland and wales from those countries will continue to go to uni for free so effectively tax payers in england will be contributing towards scottish and welsh young people going to uni but not english young people. I believe in free higher education for all - but the whole purpose of higher education is that for uni is for the brightest - not for everyone. the 'aim higher' programme for poor kids should also be continued - thats been scrapped as well

how wincey is that gilmour bloke. pissed as a fart too, what a knob

Did anyone hear on the news a police chief calling for future students protests to be banned. OMG he wants our democratic rights revoked. Of course his comments were quickly denounced but the powers that be are trying to come up with something to curtail them.

Was just looking at something today on the poll tax riots, the brixton riots and the miners strike. They were just as bad if not worse.

Yes that is exactly what I heard together with that he didnt want to call the students demonstrators he wanted to call them thugs and lock them up.

I wonder if he heard the nobel prize winners speech read out in the same news programme - I rather doubt it as it mentioned that free speech is a fundamental human right.

I think the miners strikes were just as bad and probably worse with reason. Whole communities were destroyed for generations.

Thats why when Maggie briefed David Cameron on his entry to office my heart sank. Cameron has been geared up for protests from the start which is why he made libdems the fall guys and in the process has dehumanised the students in his mind and in the minds of the police.

On balance I would have liked to have seen a detailed white paper with proper debate and discussion and consultation on the fees issue.

Lets name and shame the minority scum that did criminal damage and who were involved in violence.

Also I wonder if any of them are studying to be lawyers, teachers etc. Do they not realize they must have a good track record within the law. Dear god, im ashamed to be British when I see those scenes!

My MP voted against but has said that this will be 'more progressive' than the current system and that there are good bits so I asked what they were.

Firstly, part-timers won't need to pay upfront. Fine but a lot of part-timers are retraining and unemployed so got their fees paid for them. I wonder if their fees will now be future loans.

Secondly, the threshold issue so poor students pay less. Fine too but I think someone should come up with a comedy sketch in the style of 'Norton Finance' reduced the monthly payment but pay 3x as many repayments.

Thirdly, the national scholarship. The amount available is equivalent to the scrapped EMA and only available to adult children of the unemployed. Good for them but a small minority. This doesn't come in until 2014, 2 years after the tution fee rise.

What I understood was that the protestors route would have them ending up on Victoria embankment but that this legitimate and agreed route was blocked by the police.

I saw the police at 10am in the morning travelling along the Embankment to the site of the protest. In a few hours later they would have been rareing to go. I feel sorry for hte horses but the police choose to use them in volatile situations.

Any march which ends in a small restricted area is going to become tense. I think the police have a difficult job but at the same time think they get hyped up and primed for violence.

For me what's happening is like holding up a mirror for the government - one that lies, chooses not to value young people, promotes greed then sets the example to society. In other words they get the society they deserve.

We are a morally bankrupt society if we don't invest in education and also operate this payg mentality regarding services.

My dcs want to go to university and of course I would expect them to work and contribute however its one thing doing it because you have to and another because you are proving a point - referring to the poster earlier who went to private school but chose to support herself. That's probably a whole lot easier when you have a strong financial infrastructure behind you.

What I have seen with single parent friends (and I am also one) is that when that child reaches 18 you are stuck regarding accommodation if you are on a low income. any support such as EMA or cb ceases and you may not be able to maintain a family home.

I can forsee when mine both reach 18 I will have to give up my rented home and live in small flat.

Slightly off topic but contrast that to a more wealthy student who has that support and stability at home ie easy to go home in the holidays etc.

There will be plenty more civil unrest to come this is only the beginning (I know this because the Big Issue seller has predicted it .

I despise the Tories (lived through their previous adminstrations) and the sense of dread I felt when I knew they might get in has just got worse and worse.

Agree also about the comments about the Bullingdon Club - a load of toffs trashing a restaurant - a bit of a laugh but if the ordinary person does it its unacceptable and they will feel the full force of the law.

I find the Met Police chief rather chilling and unnerving too.

PS my local lib dem mp (very high up in the party) abstained.

Hes a fantastice constituency MP but not convinced his head hasn't been turned by the power.

I think the one Im most disappointed in is Vince Cable. Nick Clegg is just the same as the Tories imho

And remember, to get a loan, those part-timers must never have studied before - so they can't be retraining from one degree-area to another. Ineligible for a loan (as the vast majority of current part time students are), they will be having to pay upfront hugely hiked fees (eg current international student fee levels) to cover the absent teaching funding.

I think the protests got way out of hand, but I also think this was in many respects.

The protests by some 'disenfranchised' young people facing a repayment schedule lasting until they are 50 years old obviously attracted other equally 'disenfranchised' young people who felt that they had nothing to lose. Some of these people are politicised but many are just angry and hopeless.

It's a key point - nothing to lose - so I restate it. You cannot take people's hope away and expect nothing to happen - surely? It seems strange to me that anyone could think that.

However - the role and actions of the police also seems to bear some scrutiny I think. (If it is really the case that they baton charged 14 and 15 year olds, and that they caused that dreadful brain injury from baton use) I realise that it is hard for them to judge but surely ...

Really, telsa?

Hadn't realised that.

Well, that will be the end of part-time courses then.

Who can afford to do that - the reason most people study part-time is because they can't afford to study full-time, in financial or time terms - ie parents with young kids, or those studying on top of working.

How depressing. What a shit govt.

Posting as someone who was there:

GiddyPickle - I couldn't string a coherent sentence together after having been tricked into a kettle and then charged at by mounted police either. I challenge you to attend a protest like that and manage it yourself. What we wanted the police to do was to allow us to follow the official route they had agreed but blocked before any violence began.
No, a lot of us weren't genuine students, but being part of the student body is not a requirement for protesting on their behalf.
It is possible for the police to get through to pick up the trouble makers as this is what they were sending snatch squads to do.

christmaseve - the number of schoolchildren, college students in receipt of EMA and subject to the highest fees and graduates who paid nil fees was comparable to those in attendance who are paying the current rate.

BaggedandTagged - there were no tourists in Trafalgar Square. Understandably those inside the shops which had their fronts smashed took cover, but interestingly, bystanders all the way to Oxford Street were doing exactly that: emptying premises onto the pavements and roads to watch, not cowering inside.

Poogles - to say the Cenotaph was vandalised - as in irreparably damaged or destroyed - is somewhat inaccurate. Yes, I saw the photograph of someone hanging off a flag, but when I passed it later at 5pm, there was not only not a mark upon it, but no-one intending to make one.
I didn't agree with the largest fire as that was a plastic cabin belching thick fumes over most of Parliament Square, but that and the fire by the tree in Trafalgar Sqaure were isolated so there was nothing for them to spread to. Most other fires were far smaller and were made only to keep warm as we were preventing from marching to do so.

foxinsocks - to elaborate on what I said to GiddyPickle: when we got to Parliament Square at approximately 2pm, it was peaceful, but there was already a police line blocking the agreed route halfway up Whitehall which would have given access to Victoria Embankment for the peaceful NUS rally and vigil, another across Bridge Street and shortly afterwards another blocking us in the way we had come via Great George Street.

I could never condone violence for it's own sake, but I will always seek to set the record straight.

My son was on a ski trip thankfully.

BUT I have just seen David Cameron pontificating about the dreadful protesters - I am singularly unimpressed.

I cannot believe this I am veering to the left - no not even that I am just looking at the government and thinking we would be better off without them. How on earth have I been forced into this position? The Coalition really needs to think about the way they are interacting with the population.

Certainly, this should be a gift for Labour - I'd be interested to see a poll of voting intentions post the vote on student fees.

If you can take the Mail 'likes' as the closest thing to a public poll at the moment, they seemed overall more in favour ofthe students and against the vote - but obviously it may be that the silent majority who don't read papers online or click red/green arrows disagree.

I don't condone violence but reading the shock horror outrage on here and elsewhere, either I am older than most of the people or other people have short memories! Miners strike, Brixton and Liverpool riots, poll tax riots anyone? Not right but these protests are small fry IMHO.

This whole debate depresses the hell out of me. Far from being a 'big society' we are a selfish individualist society unable to see the bigger picture of what higher education delivers. And what does it deliver? People who serve society or at least people who pay tax. Yes, tax - that's the system for paying back money that we already have in place. Those who are lucky enough to do well pay more as they earn more and higher earners pay proportionally more on a segment of their earnings. I am sickened when I hear the argument 'why should I pay for your education?'. It's a slippery slope. Single people and the childless could equally say well why should I pay for your child's eduation, period? Or why should I pay for your child's health care? For those with private education and health care, why should I pay for the playground your child plays on? Libraries - heck, get rid of them - buy your own books. Disabled? too bad, not my problem mate - I'm not going to benefit directly from services at the moment so fund it yourself. My parents left school at 15 but I have NEVER heard them gripe about their taxes going to fund higher education even before I became the first generation to go to Uni.

On a more practical note, it's not well thought through at all. Already, I know of some mums who will not be re-paying their student loans from the mid-90's as they have never earned enough to meet the threshold of payment in their careers and will soon be old enough for the debt to be waived. Whether the current proposal includes an age at which the debt is waived, I don't know but I suspect this will be a financial disaster as de-faulting occurs en masse.

Riven that chip must really weigh you down!
Can you not post without slagging someone off who may have more than you. That's life. No point craving after someone else's. And wouldn't we all be in a bad position if everyone only earned minimum wage...who'd pay for all the benefits then.
I think many students and many posters on this thread are unaware of the what the situation is on fees.
Not everyone should go to Uni, it is not a right.
The whole system should be overhauled, and most courses should last 1 to 2 years. You do not have to go to Uni to be successful in life.

I was in Covent Garden on the day of the poll tax riot - buying clothes from Whistles for my wedding. My sister pulled me into Crabtree and Evelyn from where we watched the protestors. They were VERY different people from the frightened students of yesterday. They were anarchists and they just stripped through everything. You should have seen the mess. All the tubes were closed and we had to wait ages for a taxi to get home.

I did understand the complaint - as I do now - it was an unworkable policy (as it proved to be) But I had no sympathy - I was just annoyed, this is very different.

There is no point going to university for 1 or 2 years at BA level. What you are talking about Cedarcottage is a training course. At university students develop (mature) over time - you can't speed that up by cramming. The difference in their abilities after 3 years is what makes it a higher level qualification with meaning. I see it in my students - 1st year - feet finding, second year anxiety, learning to learn, third year, confidence, knowledge, research skills....

Totally agre, telsa - it took me 3 years to learn how to learn, independently. A hard road, pushing me to my limits intellectually, but lessons I couldn't have learned any other way - there are no short cuts.

It's not about learning a body of knowledge - it's about learning how to think - and that takes time.

What it will do is add to the problem because who do you think will foot the bill to repair all the damage these "protesters" are inflicting?

There is no money, they have just cost the taxpayer more.

To be honest I would hope than none of the morons I watched in the reports gets in to any credible university and as for the "lecturers"... Lack of intelligence in how this movement is progressing that is for sure.

And if this causes people to vote Labour then they are even more delusional as what do they think they'll do. I am highly suspicious we didn't see this level of "protest" when Labour introduced so many of their policies - or the wars for that matter. But then again I suppose that is what happens when you collude with unions.

Have just come back to this thread. Telsa you are probably right in your observation of a three year degree.

However, these days the seriously bright students are doing double degrees in the 3 or 4 years they are at University.

Some students are really there for the academic side of things and can fit in part time work.

Others fit their academic work around their social obligations.

Things like skipping lectures, going straight to the pub instead of keeping up with their work. Making ten thousnad new friends they don't really need.

Oh! and Christmas if you are still around,I accept your apology for telling me to get lost. At least you didn't use the F word like some posters do.

I hope your DD works hard and gets a place at a good Uni but remember it's not the be all and end all of things'

I know one young who was dux of her private school and deferred Uni for 1 year. Went to work for HSBC bank and loved it so much she stayed there for 3 years and then went to Uni part time.

She now has 3 degrees and travels all over the world. She's still only 29

Two what have the unions got to do with the level of protesting? Do you imagine the unions to be all pervasive, massively influencial over the public etc etc? That's quite funny.

I for one am pleased to see a bit of protest and passion instead of the apathy that the cuts have thus far been greeted with.
I am also not going to get all het up about a bit of damage to property - there's a lot of justifiable anger out there. Frankly the behaviour of the police leaves a lot to be desired - I watched footage of the Glasgow demo on youtube and the police were clueless and aggressive.
I just wish that other groups about to get shat on would mobilise and do the same.