To wonder if these riots will change anything?

[poshsinglemum]

I think it's getting totally out of hand. I think that HE should be accesable but that's what the students loan company is for-no? i have no money; I have a student loan. When I start to earn enough again I shall continue to pay it back.
I have no problem with demos but attacking a car etc is not helping the cause.

A lot of teachers and/or trainee teachers have studied for first degrees before starting teacher training. Lots of 60s protesting students ended up as teachers, academics.

I think a lot of us need to protest and support others protesting.

A lot of reports and discussions on the protests seem very one sided. Why are the police so keen to kettle protestors in every time?

I hope Alfie Meadows, (who had to have a 3 hour operation for bleeding to the brain after he was hit on the head with a truncheon, and he was trying to leave to go home) gets well quickly.

I'm not sure I agree Giddy. I was listening to a radio phone in this morning and the presenter admitted he was surprised that most people were in support.

Where are all these jobs that students are expected to be able to get to fund their studies? My best friend graduated with a PhD a year ago, can drive anywhere she is needed, and can't even get part-time bar work in towns 15 or 20 miles away. What makes people think that employers are going to be tripping over themselves to offer jobs to students who will need to work round lectures, exams and deadlines? There aren't that many jobs, not for students, not for graduates, not for anyone.

"thx1138 - no people are not happy to be ignored but why should those who shout the loudest and commit violent crimes have more political influence than others?"

I am glad there are people out there prepared to shout the loudest. It's the people who passively sit at home and accept the nasty medicine and never try to influence our politicians that should be ashamed.

"do you think vulnerable groups should be overlooked and suffer more cuts to fund fees for students just because students have less scruples about how they make their concerns known and are more violent in their objections than others?"

My post was about the culture of protest and civil disobedience as a means to an end. It wasn't about tuition fees as such. I would hope that these overlooked and vulnerable groups mount similar campaigns against unfair government cuts.

Well you're shouting pretty loud on these threads

Neither were the callers to the radio station and neither were most of the protesters yesterday (setting fire to things).

It seems churlish to ignore the views of tens of thousands of people because a small number caused trouble.

I don't know if anyone has already linked to this account of the protests www.guardian.co.uk/education/blog/2010/dec/09/student-protests-live-coverage Sorry not sure how to post a link?
Seems an even handed account from in the midst of the protests, by many people- and tends to give the view that police tactics were not ideal if the aim was to keep the peace.
I have been on marches in the very distant past. Sadly the largest AND most peaceful demonstration I ever went on- against the Iraq war- was totally ignored. Yes, some people on marches- always a minority, and a very small one- can be provocative and stupid. The vast majority of demonstrators are not out to cause trouble, just to make a peaceful point. You only need to look at some of the pictures to see that most of the marchers were in good humour (their placards were brilliant and witty) and genuinely intentioned. Some were very young- schoolchildren of 14,15.
HOWEVER, nothing is more guaranteed to both frighten and anger even the most peaceful protestor than being charged by police horses, confronted by police in riot gear banging their truncheons on their shields, or being kettled, which is a hideously provocative tactic designed to create maximum distress to the protestors.
I think the students should be saluted- they have stood up and been counted and good for them.
Also, the anger and frustration felt by so many is very sad but entirely justified when you think about the actions of the Liberal Democrats over this whole issue. So many university towns were won by Lib Dems who just turned around yesterday and spat on their student voters.

I think the problem is with the media. In a bid to demonise the protestors they amp up the rpeortage only when there's a threat to Laura Norder. Even though everybody knows that most of those there were not throwing anything at posh cars containing old pepople, this is what gets reported.

Then at the next demo there's an incentive to behave even more badly.

What I also think is that we should all be protesting the cut in the block grant and not the fees increase. Once they do the grant cut unilaterally raising fees is the obvious result. What would make MUCH more sense is to reduce the number of universities. Yes, yes, I know, but Oxbridge will always be able to raise giant fees, and probably - dunno, random instance - the UWE won't, so better, probably, to close it off neatly by merging the bits that work well with Bristol and shutting the rest.

Where I live some of our local councillors took a gentle bashing from grannies with placards protesting over cuts to a day centre. Bloody grannies, what a sense of entitlement.

Giddy, would you have a problem if the fees were, say, 100k per year?

If there had been NO violence, there would of been NO Media Focus.

I lost all sympathy for the cause when several of the "protesters" attacked the police horses. They took way too far. I also lost quite a bit of sympathy when they desicrated the Churchill statue.

And it really hammered home how utterly thick some of this lot must be when Dave Gilmour's son was pictured climbing the cenotaph. Oh the fucking irony! You think Dave Gilmour's kids are gonna leave uni up to their eyes in debt? I don't. His excuse made me really though: He didn't know what he was climbing on Which means university is the least of his problems and he needs to go back to the infants. As he's he's either illiterate or totally ignorant.

Giddy,

I agree that the 100k number is a bit daft, but I was told that to employ a science researcher in a university, it costs about 100k a year (salary + equipment, etc).

Given that a lot of the 9k would undoubtedly go towards research rather than teaching, I could see some universities down the line tempted to go to 10k, 20k, 30k etc. Remember when it all started with 1k, then 3k, now 9k? (I appreciate it's a slippery slope argument).

I don't rule out fees per se, but I just think there's a qualitative difference between the zero debt that was once the norm, to the current 10-20k (pay back in 10-15 years), and now the proposed 40-50k (pay for 30 years) worth of debt.

Giddy - I don't agree that the peaceful protesters have not been represented.

I have heard interview, read accounts in the papers, all from non-violent protesters.

I don't actually think that the violence has detracted anything. I think David Cameron and certain sections of the media would like us all to be morally outraged by it but fortunately we aren't that daft.

As said before I am totally against violence. However silence is not the answer and so it is important to protest. Yesterday thousands of very young people expecting to go on a peaceful march were herded and left without food or drink or a loo in the freezing cold and unable to go home for hours and hours. My son finally got back to his halls at 11 pm having been kettled (AKA imprisoned on the open air) since 3 pm. He says the students-many of whom were 15/16 were herded very close together upright and many who tried to get out were bludgeoned back into the kettle and had injuries with blood everywhere and no first aid or anything. He said most students were peaceful .This is his first experience of biased reporting and police aggression at first hand. He is clearly quite upset and traumatised and today has been on the phone to me and needs to talk about it loads.
It is quite a task for a parent to make sure that this sort of experience doesn't polarise young people and turn them against the police. Equally, the young need to feel that they can go on a peaceful march without being categorised as 'thugs' by the police or the media. And the vast majority of the young yesterday were peaceful.

I have of course explained to him that this lesson- of knowing that all reporting is biased and all governments will put forward the view of the truth which suits their purpose, so that he needs to be sceptical of sources of evidence, look at as many sources as possible and be aware of the uses of evidence when putting one's case.
He has also learned a very important lesson which is that riot police are not rational humans and are best avoided.