to wonder why most women marry men who don't know what teamwork is?

[frgr]

Yes, and I chose "most women" very specifically in my post title. Because that's what it feels like, and I'm frustrated at seeing the same story played over and over again on these boards plus in real life.

Just replied to a poster who was talking about feeling extremely underappreciated by her DH, feeling like he is basically just another pair of feet to tidy around. Then clicked on another thread - a woman talking about her husband feeling pressure as the main breadwinner who still expects her to do all housework, childcare, time off for appointments, school paperwork, homework supervision if she goes fulltime. As I was reading, my mobile beeped with a text message from my BF since primary school - an update on her and DH's trial separation prompted by, basically, him refusing to do anything non-work related when he gets home, including putting his own shoes away "because she's a SAHM and that's her job".

Why why why why do so many women continue to marry and have children with men who treat them this way? Do we need to suggest "teamwork" training as part of the pre-nup preps?

I reckon it because lots of these situations dont arise until you have kids and are really tested in life.

You cant know how someone will react to a siation you havent yet experienced.

I suppose- you could try and understand your partner's views on stuff like who does what at home first....

Will watch this with interest.

You have a point.

One of my very good friends commented once that she wants to bring up her son TO BE A GOOD HUSBAND TO SOME ONE ONE DAY, becuase her experience of men is that they are lazy selfish halfwits, and she never wanted anyone to say that about her boy.

Made me think.

I have let this slip, for Gods sake i lived with him for years prior to kids and marriage. I knew what i was getting into.

It absolutely infuriates me that it has gone on so long.

So i put an end to it, foot down with a firm hand. No more, i am no ones dogs body or slave. I am a strong person, no one walks over me. I am a professional in my work life, so i am tackling this as i would do at work, in a professional manner.....watch this space.

Can you hear that.......

cracking open of a HUGE can of whoop ass....

I don't think its that hard to work out (broadly speaking) whether you have a good 'un before you have kids. Surely you just need to talk about your expectations? And presumably you also have a fairly good idea how good your partner is at sharing domestic work if you live together?

Mind you, I am always astounded by the number of people who seem to have kids without even discussing things like who is going to look after them, who is going to go back to work and how much, how you are going to manage finances etc etc. Yes of course the reality is much tougher than you envisage but we all have prior expectations and assumptions and surely you would want to discuss them before you commit to a life partnership with someone?

I agree it's often well into the relationship when these problems come up - usually when you have kids and the woman goes on maternity leave or becomes a SAHM. Unfortunately some men seem to misinterpret becoming a SAHM with becoming their personal servant. I think sometimes there's also resentment on the part of the man for having to work when in his view she isn't, leading to 'punishing' her by making her pick up his shoes and such humiliating servitude.

Shouldn't happen if it's a man who loves you and considers women as equals, and has respect for parenting and other non-paid work...but it seems to be very easy for couples to fall into these patterns.

YANB at all U. I find it hugely surprising quite how widespread it is. Always accompanied by a browbeaten acceptance.

perhaps another question can be asked at the same time - the amount of people who don't think that their kids should have to contribute to the running of the home, tidying up after themselves, develop personal responsibility etc & while at home it's the Mum's job to do everything for them? They must all be related to the boys who grow up to be the men who have these stupid attitudes surely?

I hear your frustration frgr.

Having a duvet couple of days due to feeling like poo and meandering around MN pages reading the same relationship stuff over and over. Notwitshtanding the fact all my friends/acquaintances seem to be saying the same things too.

My partner and I both work, whether it is in the home or out of it. We see a job we go to it, we use our intitiative. Yes we get tired and snappy and yes it gets tough sometimes but the main thing is we both remember to say thank you. He says thank you when I do his washing or cook his tea, I say thank you when he brings me a cup of tea in bed in the morning or chops logs for the fire. Or vice versa Because I feel appreciated, I can run all day doing anything for him and it must work the same the other way too

So in answer to your question, I don't think it is teamwork training that is necessary, perhaps just manners!

YANBU

I get frustrated when people comment on how wonderful my husband is because I just want to scream at them 'no, he's not wonderful, he's what he should be - most other husbands are shit'.

So depressing

Well I'm another one. I knew what I was getting in to (we were together for 9 years before DS arrived) but it still gets to me that given half a chance or minute he's back upstairs like a shot to play on his PC.

You'd think after 13 years he would not need to ask what I want doing when I ask him to come help tidy. It's not as if he doesn't know what a tidy house looks like (even if the memory is growing dimmer by the year!).

I really want to get DS educated properly here... though it's not as if MIL didn't try, either. She's tidier than I am, but he ignores her totally!

Nature not nurture in this case sigh

FindingAManger and Toyboat - both so true.

I think a lot of women expect men to know what needs to be done around the house, and a lot of men have no idea as their mothers did it all when they were children.

Most women have observed their mothers getting on with housework, etc., and know what needs done. In my experience all of this needs to be made explicit to men, then once they understand they will get on with what needs done.

Saying to a man "Please put the bins out on a Thursday", you're more likely to have success than saying nothing then silently fuming that the lazy fecker never notices that the neighbours' bins are all out every Thursday. Most men need it spelled out! It's not fair that we have to think of all this and organise it all, but surely it's better to have a frank, calm talk about the household chores and who is going to do them, than make a martyr of yourself trying to do everything while getting stressed about how little he does.

I'm always astounded by the low expectations of some women on here, and I don't agree that you only realise you're with a useless man once you're deep in the relationship. I've dated loads of blokes and it is obvious quite quickly the ones who treated me as an equal and the ones who didn't. But then, I have never gone into a relationship thinking that the man is too good for me (quite the opposite in fact).

I think that most women vastly under-value themselves and this is the main problem. I also find it sad and worrying that DD will face the same poor choice that I did, because mothers don't bring their sons up to respect women. I'm not laying the blame for useless men at the door of women, but women are complicit in ensuring that there are ongoing generations of useless men. Personally I would rather be single than be in a relationship with most of the blokes that I hear about on here.

I do think there is an element of training involved.
When we first moved in together, Mr Susie was not that great aroudn the house.
Instead of doing everything I let things slide. Oh look there is nothing to eat, no clean socks, house is a mess etc etc

If you start doing everytying that just becomes the status quo.

I will admit to being a bit sceptical about the idea that men just don't know what needs to be done (related myth: men just don't see dirt). If they lived on their own they'd somehow manage to figure out when to put the bin out or how the washing machine works. They're not some other species from us, and we don't have some housework gene that they're missing.

More like they just don't want to do it (who would), and have been socialised to expect all that boring stuff to be magically taken care of for them while they play computer games like overgrown kids, and are happy to use their wife as an unpaid servant.

I got married young and naively thought that my idea of love (you respect and care for that person and enjoy doing nice things for them) would be his.

Turned out his idea of love was that it was really great that I loved him and he'd let me do everything for him.

I divorced him

Agree Ephiny.

I think a big issue is that men do see dirt and mess, but they generally dont care about it as much as women.

This isnt because women like a cleaner house, but because women tend to be judged for the state of their houses whereas men dont.

I think that this is a major factor in a lot of divorces, but it's not spoken about much. Certainly was in mine. Weirdly, now I do it all myself on my own, I'm less exhausted, in fact it doesn't bother me much, it's just what I do. I suspect the penny might have dropped with my ex now that he lives on his own.

Some people just want a 'mummy' who just does everything for them, as happened when they were little. It's kind of pathetic.

I find it really upsetting that most of my close friends seem to be locked in to this cycle of one partner just being downright lazy. The astonishing thing is, when they get really distressed with their partners about it, their distress seems to be totally ignored. I'd love to actually discuss this with a lazy person to find out why they don't care, or do something about the other person's exhaustion and despair. It's so shit.

Apparently there is a book called "wife work" by a woman who got divorced and then discovered that she had more free time being a single parent than when she was married, because her ex created more work than he actually did.

I havent read it myself- just heard about it on a feminism thread.

"More like they just don't want to do it (who would), and have been socialised to expect all that boring stuff to be magically taken care of for them" - nail on the head there Ephiny (great name btw).

So if you end up with one of these chaps you have 3 choices - engage with them & re-educate them, browbeaten acceptance, or leave.

Most men I know well, DP & his brothers, my brother, my father, close male friends etc are all fab around the home & play an equal role in the demands of home life, whether they have kids or not. They are pretty much all from large-ish families, and were brought up to be self sufficient beings by largely strong & empowered women.

Friends partners have often times shocked me with just how pathetic they claim to be, how they get away with it whilst spending hours playing computer games etc 'recovering' from the demands of their day, while their poor partner suffers for it and is slowly losing the will for any of it. But she will be stuck as she now has kids etc & loves the person she lives with, if not his behaviour. It's incredibly demoralising and I wonder if these guys actually stop to think just how much their behaviour is slowly bit by bit, day by day, degrading & destroying their relationship. These guys will often be bring home fat paychecks and possibly see this as fulfilling their side of the bargain - in which case why not use part of that fat pay check to hire a cleaner to at least address part of the imbalance and to avoid treating your partner like a daily maid??? (not that that is the answer to partnership in the home, but it would certainly help balance out the drudgery they are otherwise imposing on their partner)

Interesting thread!

I dont see why men need telling what needs to be done around the house.

Assuming most women are with men roughly the same age ie same generation, then surely women were brought up the same way as their brothers with the mother doing everything? or did brothers sit aroung while their sisters were expected to help?

If not, then at some point women learn what is required to run a household which means that the same should apply to men! They shouldnt need telling!

So its more like a sense of entitlement as far as i can see.

I was already a single mother working full time when I got together with DP.

I told him he could only move in if he made my life easier, that he wasn't going to be another child for me to look after.

Some men change once married/once children are added into the equation.

No, I'm serious.

Dh underwent a gradual transition from being completely looking after himself to resenting me for not doing anything and everything that he no longer fancied doing. (It seems that in his mind after you are married you have a wife and that apparently should change your life for the better and we are not talking in terms of love and companionship on tap).

What gets me is that dh loves teamsports but just can't work as a team at home he has to be top dog (in his mind only).

He was not like this before we married or I would not have married him.