to wonder why most women marry men who don't know what teamwork is?

[frgr]

Yes, and I chose "most women" very specifically in my post title. Because that's what it feels like, and I'm frustrated at seeing the same story played over and over again on these boards plus in real life.

Just replied to a poster who was talking about feeling extremely underappreciated by her DH, feeling like he is basically just another pair of feet to tidy around. Then clicked on another thread - a woman talking about her husband feeling pressure as the main breadwinner who still expects her to do all housework, childcare, time off for appointments, school paperwork, homework supervision if she goes fulltime. As I was reading, my mobile beeped with a text message from my BF since primary school - an update on her and DH's trial separation prompted by, basically, him refusing to do anything non-work related when he gets home, including putting his own shoes away "because she's a SAHM and that's her job".

Why why why why do so many women continue to marry and have children with men who treat them this way? Do we need to suggest "teamwork" training as part of the pre-nup preps?

pottanista our upbringing gives us our life scrips, which is why it is so important that we as parents do everytinh gwe can to make sure our children grow up with life scripts that will work for them.

How many women complain about their DHs never pulling their weight, then do everything for their kids?

Kids should be pulling their weight, not just doing a token chore every day, but actually doing a fair proportion of the housework.

God yes FindingaManger. I am not blaming mothers alone. By saying mothers do everything, obviously the fathers are doing nothgin and contributing equally to the messages they are giving their sons and daughters.

I just think a mother can more easily say "no, I'm not doing everything" and make a real impact by stoppping being the all caring all doing martyr that she could be.

I don't think many men would make the first step towards redressing the balance of workload around the house so they are doing more.

overmydeadbody Quite so. (I grew up in a pretty dysfunctional family, and worry a lot about passing bits of that on ).
I think what I was trying to say is that sometimes we're not aware of the patterns we've been given until we fall right into them...and getting out of them/changing them is, while not impossible, a lot harder than saying 'I should be doing such and such'.

Very interesting thread! I agree with those who say things often start with women themselves, and with having children/staying at home which in some cases changes the balance.

In my view women need to a) let go of control (over household and children) and b) demand equality. What I have seen change in terms of couples having children is that a lot of women are quite obsessive about the babies and wont let the man do anything as he is "doing it wrong" (or as is my opinion mom is just afraid of letting go of control). Then their surprised when their child is 2, still wakes up in the night and the man sees it as your problem to sort out the sleep issue (and the toilet training and the weaning and everything else about the child rearing!). Keep men involved from day one and demand that they do their part in the child related stuff as well as the household stuff. In my case its evolved into something as simple as making sure that even if he sleeps sounder than me and therefore wont wake up when our 2 yo wakes up in the night (she started waking up in the night after sleeping through when she was about 18 mo)I nudge him to make sure he does wake up. First few times I had to tell him to go make some milk for her. Now a nudge has him out of bed in no time! Makes me an inconsiderate bitch? Nope it means OUR dd's sleep issues are both our problem and that we as parents can find a good solution for it. That means we're having to work as a team to get there. I told him straight that that was what I was doing and after laughing and telling me I was mean he did admit that if he hadn't been disturbed at night he wouldn't be very bothered about the bedtime routine conundrum.

So even if you are SAHM you've got to make sure he doesn't come home from having worked a measly 8 hours only to sit around for the next 16 hours, leaving you on 24 hour duty.

My solution, sad though it is to admit it, is to never drop your my guard. If I do I am sure complacency will develop (in both my dp and in me) and to ensure equality is maintained. Wish it didn't have to be this way but look on the bright side, if we all keep this up by 2050 society might have changed for all families!

I think you have to set out your expectations from day 1 of your relationship and stick to them. If your partner doesn't automatically do his fair share of housework and childcare without you demanding it of him then there's something seriously wrong with his atttitude.

From what my mates tell me the problem seems to start as soon as the couple have their first baby. To some men, being a mum means being a general dogsbody. 50's attitudes prevail.

Although, I agree with the general sentiment of the thread its a bit too black and white and somewhat onesided.

I think it depends on the situation what is the best solution.

1. IF BOTH partners work out of home. The solution is to hire someone to clean/iron and share the rest. That is what me and DW did when we both worked and had no DCs.

1. IF ONE person works and other SAHP with preschool DCs. Again hire a cleaner or SAHP does 60% of the housework.

1. IF ONE person works and other SAHP with DCs at school. Again hire a cleaner or SAHP does 90% of housework.

Frankly, if you dont have DCs at home during the day you should have no problem doing the vast majority of the housework. Anything less is sheer laziness and unfair to expect the working parent to come home and do 50% of housework too.

I DO think some women are lazy and their DH has a point if he works all day and then comes home to a tip and they have children who are at school.

I think pulling your weight applies equally to SAHP not just the WOHP.

We're currently doing method 3) Living in a pigsty. I am very aware that it reflects badly on me, not him and I agree with the people up-thread - he may notice the dirt, he just cares a lot less about it.

When we first got together, I'd been a single mum for a few years and was actually quite houseproud. He moved into my home with my DCs, where my routines were very well established and I have to admit I was probably quite controlling about how and when things should be done. The bachelor pad he was moving out of was really filthy. It soon became apparent that actually he was adding to the workload - more washing, tidying, shopping and cooking - and a few rows ensued. During one of these rows, he shamefacedly made a confession. Once, his bachelor flat had got so bad that his friends had come round and cleaned up around him. Not female friends, not metrosexual friends with fabulous cushion collections - these were a group of punks living in a squat down the road with a concreted-up toilet. He sat there and let them clean his flat

Whenever I've been WOHM or at college, housework has been an issue. When I've been a SAHM, not so much - probably because he's supporting two DCs that are not his and we are much better off financially because of DP's salary than I'd have a hope of being without him - and just now, while I'm at home and my DCs are teens, I actually do think it's fair that I do the bulk of it. I do have a lot more time than him to sit about or have days out with friends. After christmas, I will be no longer a SAHM, I'll be a jobseeker again and when I do find work, it will be an issue again, which he admits. The plan was to get a cleaner, but I think we're going to need every penny now to see the DCs through university.

I think I really should be working on getting the DCs to do more around the house, rather than DP. I have one of each and, beyond tidying their rooms they do very little. It's not that I think it's wrong for them to help out, it's just more work getting them to do something than it is to do it myself. I'm thinking it might make sense when I go back to work for DP to take on the domestic training of the DCs, rather than just do the jobs himself - he's less emotionally wrapped up in them and the housework so it might result in fewer fights.

Can't we send all these blokes to some sort of domestic bootcamp?

Most women marry men who don't know what teamwork is because they don't really have much choice. It's either that or stay single and alone for life. I think at least 90% (not an official figure)of men are selfish, uncaring and lazy. That is just what they're like and no amount of nagging will ever change them. The odds of finding a good guy are not stacked in your favour, fact. Ahhhhh, the single life, how wonderful it can be when you look at the alternative.

LeQ you clearly need to book yourself into Champneys for at least a week. It won't change your DH possibly but you will feel so much better.

My friend had a mother and a MIL who thought that housework was something that men had to be protected from at all costs. My friend thought that by insisting only they could look after their DH the mum and MIL were asserting a small amount of "power". They had no social status nor economic power, she used to refer to it as the "minor domestic tyrant syndrome". She and her DH split the housework and once her DH was cooking dinner and her MIL was saying how really he should leave my friend and find a "proper" wife at which my friend finally snapped and yelled "men can do housework, picking up an iron does not cause your penis to drop off!" Her DH then agreed and told his mum he enjoyed cooking. They and MIL don't talk much now.

Lets face it, if you found someone who would cook and clean and look after every detail so all you need do is sit around and watch telly, wouldn't you take up that offer?

I agree BB, no problem with one person doing all the housework and cooking, for example, if the other is doing all the paid work. Both people need to pull their weight and contribute to the household, even if they do so in different ways .

But still think the working parent in that situation should be doing the basic picking up after him/herself, i.e. putting their own shoes away (as in the OP), putting dirty clothing in the laundry basket and not thrown on the floor, putting plates etc in the sink and food wrappers in the bin after use, leaving the toilet/bath/basin in a state you'd wish to find them, clearing up anything they spill. not just deliberately leaving a trail of mess behind you and telling your partner it's her problem. That's a separate issue from housework, it's being a decent human being with respect for your home and the people you share it with. A lot of men seem to imagine they don't have to do this anymore, that's what I mean about SAHM=servant.

LeQueen - if you are at home and not working and you like a tidy house and your DH is out all day I would suggest that you tidy if it makes you happy. Your DH works out of home full time and it makes him happy. You both make a contribution in different ways.

Personally, I work at home and cant bear working in a tip. I therefore do 100% of the cleaning.

Okay, I confess. i love my husband enormously. I know he loves me. But equally, I know my life would be ever so much easier without him. Because he does create work for me. I am (was - just been made redundant) the breadwinner. But I spend a great deal more time making a happy comfortable home than he does. And he does not see it, at all.

Sometimes it is a little tiring. We wake up about 5.45- 6 ish and I do not have a moment for myself all day. Two kids. 2 elderly PILs. 1 husband. I have three degrees and 3 languages. Yet I am the dogsbody for the entire family.

My DH ( and he IS Dear. I would be lost without him) would say he is teamworking... and he is, in his way.

Good points, well made, BeenBeta, but can we acknowledge that housework is really fucking boring? However hard you work, it's all there to do again tomorrow/next week and if there's nothing else on the horizon it can make you want to climb the walls with your teeth. In a lot of cases, what can look like laziness is actually quiet despair. Worse if it's not appreciated - a lot of men really don't give a shit. It's also bloody unfair that whatever the circumstances, it always reflects badly on the woman if it's not done - never the man.

LeQ sounds like you need to make your DH recognise that he does actually value having a clean and tidy house.

That may mean not doing the housework for a while (or at least, no more than your fair share - which IMO depends on how many hours you have free after your work and childcare duties vs how many hours he has free after his work and childcare duties)

When I started living with DH he had been living on his own for 20 years (moved out when he was 16, first to look after his gran and then completely on his own from 19) and boy could I tell the difference between him and my first H!

My first H moved from his parents to his mates house as a share for a year before we lived together, and it was a total shit hole and his mum still did his washing. He hardly ever lifted a finger around the house after he had been living at mine for about 6 months. He complained when a couple of years later I insisted we get a cleaner for 6 months when a pelvic problem left me wheelchair bound for that time. I said that we didnt have to get one and gave him a list of the jobs I was physically unable to do and suddenly, we could afford one. When I was struggling to cook due to being unable to stand for more than a few minutes, did he take over? No. He bought me a bar stool to perch on. To this day I am not sure he understands why I divorced him! :o

My DH is totally different. He washes his own socks and underwear, not expecting me to touch it! He sorts out the bins etc, will cook to his ability if needs be, although I do prefer doing that myself. He will tidy and sweep and mop if it needs doing without asking. And more to the point, he doesnt make an issue of it. It needs doing, so he does it. I have never once heard him make out like he is Mr Wonderful because he hoovered, which was a thing that ex used to do. If I asked him to do anything he would bring it up for ever afterwards when I was pissed off at his lack of help.

I think it has alot to do with living alone because he learned to rely on himself instead of going from mummy to wifey and someone picking up after him all the time. I will be encouraging my boys (and girls) to live completely alone atleast for a while, and no, they wont be allowed to bring their washing home!

I do most of the organizing/work in our house, but my DH is appreciative of it and regards it as equal to the breadwinning and he does contribute too. He would NEVER use me as a "personal servant", he'd be singing descant if he did.

'Can't we send all these blokes to some sort of domestic bootcamp?'
PoP -- my elder DS went on a Tall Ships training week this summer. In seven days of deck-and-heads-scrubbing hard graft, they trained him to do more cleaning that I'd managed over the previous 14 years.

Mind you, I believe they did threaten to keel-haul any slackers.

"don't agree with the excuse that men who are brought up not to lift a finger don't know how to do domestic stuff OR don't realise they should. They need to learn and be told they've got to pull their bloody weight, end of discussion. All the skills they will have learnt/have to learn for their careers and they're incapable of switching a hoover on? Bollocks! "

I totally agree with this statement. Alot of men I know (dh included) who have this very inflated sense of entitlement on the one hand often worship their mothers for doing it all try to get their partners to do it all and give no respect for it either.

I've started to leave our home more of a mess. He does stuff like cook (shite cooking) and leaves the kitchen a shithole for me to clean. But I've started to leave it - not a great strategy but I've done the expectations thing, laying it on the line thing etc - nothing's worked to date so this is the new strategy.

To me living in a clean home is a family issue and I'm ashamed of dh's lack of family values.

You can't change a person though- they have to want to change. You can't nag someone into respecting you. If he doesn't see that he has an attitude problem then nothing's going to work.

I find these threads really sad. Before DC, DH and I did things equally although he did bins and garden and windows and I did ironing and cooking and shoppping. I quite like ironing and cooking and shopping. Other chores were split (ish) although he was working harder than me and building a name for himself.

When DS came, I did all the household stuff and almost all of the childcare. DH continued to do bins etc.. The heavy cleaning, ie, hoovering, mopping, etc has always been picked up by a cleaner. Had 8 years as a SAHM and absolutely loved it - DH did less and less but was getting more successful.

When DD was settled at school I went to work p/t and nothing much changed. That was very hard.

After two years went back f/time and we got an au pair - and had one a year for the next 4 years. children older now and no au-pair. However, au-pair did a great deal and have upped the cleaner. I am still responsible for household and DH works aboad Mon - Fri.

Both of us have been happy and both of us have worked as a team. I never resented taking the bigger share of the house because DH has the bigger job. We have worked as a team and have supported each other for the last twenty years.

My lovely MIL did a superb job of training her four sons (and daughter) to help around the house, her theory being that she wasn't letting them escape into the world as selfish little toerags with no idea of how to look after themselves or their future families... or she'd be stuck with them underfoot all her days! They are all extremely capable and not house-work shy at all. So a parent certainly has some influence over how their kids turn out.

I think there is still a lot of lingering 'traditional' roles though. Man works all day while little wifey stays at home cooking and cleaning and childrearing.

As there are a lot of people still alive who lived and perpetuated that sterotype it is not really any wonder that it hasn't been done away with yet. These things take time to die out and there are probably a fair few men who still view this gender role business as an excuse to be lazy and selfish - maybe not even consciously, but somewhere in their brain they may still believe women do domestic stuff, not them.

Though of course there are just lazy, entitled little arses in the world too who only really care about themselves - both male and female.

DH's first wife was just such a woman - he worked all day in a high stress job and then came home, cooked dinner, did laundry and cleaning, put her two kids (school age, so she wasn't minding them all day) to bed - while she went shopping all day or sat on the sofa watching telly. DHs sister and sister-in-laws all hated her and thought DH was a giant mug... which of course he was.

He is still very well-trained though, and I sometimes have to stop him from absentmindedly doing more than his fair share. Sometimes I have to go and turn the football game on and gently steer him away from the washing up before he gets the hint.

I confess I feel very lucky to have such a good teamworker as a husband, and I'm sorry that other ladies are still having a hard time trying to get some equal housework divisions in their homes. I am sure that the reason so many women marry these chore-dodgers is because there aren't enough good teamworkers to go 'round.

I know that in my early twenties I lived with just such a guy - I didn't like his slobby entitled attitude and frequently tried to 're-educate' him about housework not being done by fairies. But the final straw came and I left him after he had the nerve to scream at me because there were no clean mugs to put his tea in.

I told him that they were all where HE had left them... scattered around the house with his tea dregs in. That stopped him for a moment before he retorted that he'd been at work all day and I'd been at home, so I could have washed them up! Um, your tea mugs buddy, not mine. Also, yes, I was at home all day - but working on an important essay for my degree. Rather more important than his blinkin' mugs. Stupid twunt. I pity whoever ended up with him as I think he was a lost cause.