to wonder why most women marry men who don't know what teamwork is?

[frgr]

Yes, and I chose "most women" very specifically in my post title. Because that's what it feels like, and I'm frustrated at seeing the same story played over and over again on these boards plus in real life.

Just replied to a poster who was talking about feeling extremely underappreciated by her DH, feeling like he is basically just another pair of feet to tidy around. Then clicked on another thread - a woman talking about her husband feeling pressure as the main breadwinner who still expects her to do all housework, childcare, time off for appointments, school paperwork, homework supervision if she goes fulltime. As I was reading, my mobile beeped with a text message from my BF since primary school - an update on her and DH's trial separation prompted by, basically, him refusing to do anything non-work related when he gets home, including putting his own shoes away "because she's a SAHM and that's her job".

Why why why why do so many women continue to marry and have children with men who treat them this way? Do we need to suggest "teamwork" training as part of the pre-nup preps?

Hark

I do hear you but eg it's my DH who remembers to get cash and leave it out for the cleaner in our house. I never asked him to but it's evovled that he keeps an eye on it and he actually asked me for the first time in a year to do it yesterday (as he is working bonkers hours so didn't have time) - I promptly forgot and had to use some gift money stashed away to cover it!

We are hoping to have children next year and it i.e. the housework side of thing, is something I will definitely be discussing with him prior to that. Obviously things will change to some degree - they have to after all. But am not planning on being his skivvy.

Funnily enough it's his best mate (a guy) who trained him up after university. They lived together for two years and he did a great job. Best Mate will make a fab husband some day!

On seeing my DP after he'd lost a few pounds, my own mother said 'Well Tallulah you're obviously not feeding him enough - he's wasting away!'. I muttered something about him being a grown man perfectly capable of feeding himself without my involvement, but she's too far gone for me to even argue.

The only solution in our household would be simply for me to care less. DP just doesn't care enough about whether the bathroom is clean to do anything about it. I should have known - when I met him, his flat was an absolute disgrace (think the dirtiest place you've ever seen, then triple it - it was true squalor). It's really my fault for not thinking ahead to how his behaviour was going to affect me in future. Because he certainly doesn't!

What are your strategies please ladies? Nagging just wears us both down. And despite my best intentions, it always ends up being nagging, because he DOESN'T CARE!

Also how does anyone find such men sexually attractive? Not pulling your weight either equals slob or little mummies boy who wants looking after. Yeuch no thanks.

My DH actually has the audacity to remove his own clothes from the wash basket (thereby avoiding mine and DCs clothes0 and wash his them. Even if it is only two items and there are ten more that could have joined them. WTF is that about?

Every time he does it I point blank refuse to wash any if his stuff for a week.

He has tried the 'this place is a mess what are you doing about it' routine to which I say he either sorts it himself or employs a cleaner. One of the many reasons I am going back to work. Twonk.

To answer the OP, I think its a deeply held belief within our society that women clean and cook and men don't. You only have to look at the ads to see it. Mums go to Iceland 9cos obviously the men will self explode on entrance to Iceland), the cleaning products aimed at women. It also goes the other way though. Men are often overlooked when it comes to childcare even if they want to. My son is only 2 but as soon as he is old enough he will learn how to use a washing machine and cook and clean.

"What are your strategies please ladies?"

Five choices:

1. Do it all, feel undervalued and have no time for yourself, teach offspring shite life lesson about your/women's value. Usually crack under the pressure whilst you're attempting to live like the adverts quaintly try and frame the "busy mum" image

1. Do only your share, this is often seen as a challenge to e.g. MIL and your DH, blame you for not making his tea too. Not possible when you have kids as e.g. for 2 kids you still do 75% of the household duties, it's just a washload for 3 not 4 people, cooking for 3 not 4 people, etc. Not an option to opt out of this 50% of the time since social services would step in

1. Live in a pigsty. Lower your level of cleanliness to match your husband. If you're OCD compulsive, this is probably best for you anyway. But if you're quite sloppy and your husband is disgustingly unclean, this means living in a shithole.

1. Employ a cleaner to substitute as the "new wife", usually in a worse economic/social position than yourself. Let her (and it's 99% of the time female) fill the wife work gap your husband refuses to step into.. even though in 90% of cases he can. Not many men work 80 hrs a week, etc.

1. Change him.

................

DH and I chose a mix of option 3 and option 5. Although since I met DH at uni the number 5 wasn't so terrible.

Fair point, Hark

So, 7 options then. Pick and choose at leisure, toss a coin, discuss - whatever works for you! :)

DH used to share with a good friend.

One day his friend happened to walk past the bathroom to see DH squirting toilet duck down and giving it a scrub. Friend was totally surprised. DH asked him if he honestly thought that the loo had been cleaning itself for the last 18 months they'd been living together.

Friend had the audacity to be incredulous and said did he actually expect him (friend) to believe that he (DH) had regularly been cleaning the loo all this time....!?! He genuinely thought the loo fairy had been giving up her time to come in and do it.

The irony is that said friend is now with a woman that as soon as she moved in with him, went out of her way to audition for the role of 'perfect wife' by doing absolutely everything for him.

Initially these kind gestures are appreciated, then they're very quickly taken for granted and then they're expected. I do not understand these women who willingly make such a rod for their own backs.

My DH is more than happy to be a capable adult, ie. look after himself, as well as the children and I. He was brought up to be this way and choses to continue to be this way. He cooks, cleans and irons, takes his fair share without being asked...despite the fact that I am at home with a 3yr old. We see our marriage as being part of a team and we both contribute equally as independent grown up beings capable of fending for ourselves and our children. What I find staggering is that some of our friends and colleagues see him as a weaker man for being like this!!! When I worked (in a good job) I actually felt that my colleagues looked down on me for being married to a man who was prepared to be so 'wrapped around my finger' They used to make commments about me not being married to a proper man!!! he is more of a man than any of them, he has respect for his wife and family.

I don't agree with the excuse that men who are brought up not to lift a finger don't know how to do domestic stuff OR don't realise they should. They need to learn and be told they've got to pull their bloody weight, end of discussion. All the skills they will have learnt/have to learn for their careers and they're incapable of switching a hoover on? Bollocks!

Whilst it's true that we're still bombarded with sexist ideas and images in society about domestic duties, are men not capable of thinking about these issues? The sole reasons some men don't help out enough or at all is: a) because they don't want to and they know if they don't, their partner will have to take up the slack or b) because they think it is beneath them, ie but not beneath women. Or c) both of those.

My DP was brought up in a totally traditional, conservative household where he, his brothers and fathers were not expected to do anything (and on top of this, both parents really treat their sons like they are about 12, grr) and yet we have never had any issues about distribution of housework - because DP believes I am his equal and thinks it's a load of nonsense that women should automatically do domestic things. We both get pissed off when people coo over what a 'treasure' he is for doing housework - as he says, he'd be doing all this stuff and much more if he lived alone (and did) so why would he stop doing it once I'm in a relationship? You can't argue with that logic, can you?! He's went from 100% housework as a single man to 50% as a loved-up one, so he thinks that's great. He finds the attitude that him doing housework is somehow special highly insulting to him as a man, not only because it's something that every adult should do but because it's disgusting to presume that it's the norm that men don't pull their weight in the home.

I'm 17 wks pg, lost my job just before getting the BFP and have been seriously ill for the whole pg. He works 40 hours a week and has done 95% of the housework without a single complaint - because he's only doing what loving equals do. If he was ill, I'd do the same.

I was brought up with parents who did everything 50-50. I wouldn't put up with anything different, because I couldn't respect or love a man who was so pathetic he couldn't do basic domestic stuff and who didn't respect me enough to bother. My father, brother and DP all feel ashamed at how other men behave over domestic duties.

DP actually feels he's better around the house than I am (he's not (he hardly EVER wipes the bench )- we are about equal) (I hardly ever put he rubbish out). Neither of us are FANTASTIC or obsessive about the housework and I can handle mess better than DP (we both grew up poor but I grew up in messy chaos with lots of creativity, he grew up in very tidy house with not much in it) - but the main thing is we work as a team.

Never once have I felt that he feels domestic chores are MY ROLE (though I am better at clothes washing/cleaning bathroom than him & he does a better job & sweeping/mopping/rubbish & general tidying than me) - it's once of the reasons I love him. (I know I know, by thinking like that I'm kind of buying into the women/mens role thing - but I do really appreciate that he is unquestionably involved in homelife because it's his home. I lived with enough male flatmates over the years to have experienced many more lazy buggers than fair players when it comes to men & housework).

An idea:

Draw up a list of all the work/contributions that need to be made and roughly decide how much time/ effort they take up. Then decide how you are going to split them 50%:50% Not each individual task needs to be 50%:50%, for example if one of you is home doing childcare while the other works out of the home, these are two tasks you do differing amounts of but the TOTAL workload should be split so. Take this opportunity to challenge any assumptions either of you might have along the lines of:

Work out of the home is more effort than work in the home

Work outside the home is 'worth more' since it earns money

Women should contribute more than men

Women are more capable than men

Chilcare is a 'background activity' that can be going on whilst cleaning/cooking/mending socks whatever

If either of you holds any of these, time to have them out! However, I work off the assumption that most men will not openly admit to believing that they should do less than their wives/partners...

I think your expectations of a relationship are influenced by the kind of relationship your parents had. If your dad sat on his arse while your mum waited on him hand and foot you might think that is just the way these things are (or alternatively you might resolve never to put up with such behaviour).

My dad worked full time but still did some housework and occasional cooking, helped us with homework, looked after us when we were ill, read bedtime stories and did all the diy. Actually thinking about it I think my mum had him wrapped round her little finger somewhat.

DP works ft and I work pt so I do most of the housework/childcare but when he's at home its 50/50.

Mountainmonkey, so how come my traditionally brought-up DP is totally different from his father? And how come plenty of male friends of mine also from tad backgrounds pull their weight in the home? You can put some rubbishness down to upbringing but only so much. No-one is so blinkered that they can't see outside their own upbringing.

My Dad did what you describe yours doing and more and I don't think he was wrapped round my Mum's little finger; he wasn't doing anything more than one should expect from a man. He was just doing what any decent husband and father should do. It's the baseline for decent behaviour, not something special. And that's what he has always said about what he does and has done, not just me.

Sounds like you have a great father and DP, btw :)

Maybe your DP could see that his father's behaviour had a negative impact on his mother and decided not to copy it in his own relationship. You're right only some of it is down to upbringing but the examples set to you by your parents are likely to have some influence.

I say my dad was wrapped round my mums little finger (they're divorced now btw) because she used to boss him around and he'd just do as she said while moaning about it behind her back. Kind of his fault really - he'd do anything to avoid confrontation.

Oooh, just had to pop back in to throw something psychomerlogical into the mix. In Transactional Analysis they talk about 'games' and 'life scripts'.

In the model, your life script is the way you (usually not very consciously) expect your life to go. It's not always good - it could be a mix of 'I'm very clever', 'I'm great at caring for people' with 'No-one appreciates me' plus god knows what else.

'Games' are rituals or patterns you act out with one or more other people. Every game has a 'payoff' that reinforces your life script. And people are uncannily good at finding others whose life scripts and games interlock with theirs.

So, in this model, someone with a life script that includes 'No-one appreciates me or puts me first' could end up playing a lifelong game with someone whose life script includes 'I deserve to put myself first all the time'. And that game could be played out via housework.

TA doesn't suggest that people actively choose to put themselves in these situations, or that they enjoy it as such - just that people can, by virtue of their backgrounds and early experience, find themselves in these positions.

In answer to the OP, then. Despite the best efforts of feminism, I think a large proportion of women are still more likely to end up with a life script that includes 'I must put others' needs first...and I will resent it' than is the case for men. Perhaps the equivalent game for men is 'I must prove I'm top dog - somewhere - even at the cost of pissing my nearest and dearest off'. That, then, gets played out via a game that could be called 'Put the bins out', the outcome of which is often 'Oh I'll do it then '. For her, the game is reinforcing the 'putting others first and resenting it' script, for the other it's the 'proving I'm top dog at the expense of relationships'. In both cases, the payoff of the game 'You put the bins out then' is reinforcing the life script, and in neither case is it conscious. Both people could be consciously keen to sustain a mutually supportive relationship, but have these other things going on as well, without realising it.

I suppose what I'm saying is that it's all very well to talk at a rational level about what should happen, but until you look at what's going on underneath, ie why people slip into these patterns and where the patterns come from, you probably won't get beyond recurring and not very productive arguments.

I think a cleaner is the best solution

billed to your DH of course

Hmmm interesting thread. I have been contemplating this recently (I had a thread complaining about DP a couple of weeks back) as I had been doing most of the stuff around the flat. It started off as me being nice as he had tons and tons of work, and was working very long hours, was crazy stressed out, and I wasn't. Then, once it calmed down this didn't lead to him immediately taking over some stuff (though it did eventually).

It's a tough one - both of us were raised in households where our mothers did all (actually, not mine, she also had a maid) the household related stuff. DP's father has never ironed a thing in his life, and only knows how to cook one dish. My Dad is slowly getting more domesticated, but after a recent discussion with DM recently, I found out that the only house-cleaning stuff he does is washing the dishes and vacuuming (he used to do absolutely nothing, so this is a major step up). But, both my brothers pull their weight at home (they also have rather, erm, strident wives), so it's not hopeless.

DP is a rather lovely exception though - he lived with two girls prior to living with me who made and expected him to do the cleaning every week (whereas at home he would never be expected to do that - his mother would), so that's helped. None of his male friends help out at home, and all of them have partners who work full time jobs (and one couple has a baby - she does everything).

I also think that part of it is not being patronising about cleaning/cooking etc. In some householdy stuff, I know I'm better - because I was taught at school and home to cook and clean, whereas he wasn't. But, if he is doing something I (think) I could do better - I don't comment. I let him get on with it. I had a flatmate before he used to reclean/comment everytime I cleaned something and it was very demoralising - I started thinking "what's the point?" and then stopped doing any cleaning as I knew it would just be criticised.

Very interesting to read peoples thoughts on this, ranging from the positive to the quite depressing. Am 14 weeks pregnant at the moment, work full time and commute an hour each way every day (all same as DH, bar the pregnancy obviously ). I've earned my own money for the last 20 years since I was 17 (and am now on a pretty good salary).

DH has always been a bit hotter on the cleaning/tidying up than me but I do my fair share. Generally I'd have said he wasn't a chauvanist .. but since being pregnant I seem to have uncovered a side of him that I'm attempting to get rid of now before it goes any further. There have been some comments about how I'll now have time to do his ironing and how the house will be "spick and span". Sometimes it sounds like he is making a joke, other times it sounds serious. I've had to be rude at times but have tried to make it perfectly clear that I'm not going to become the perfect stepford wife who keeps the house tidy (at least not straight away) and that being at home with a baby is not going to be easy and leave me with lots and lots of spare time. Yes, he's going to be paying my share of the mortgage and bills but I'm going to be raising our child and I have pointed out that he's not actually going to be working any harder at work, his life at work is not going to change in the slightest, he's just going to have less money at the end of the month.

So basically as far as I'm concerned he's not going to have less time to do his share of the housework that he does now frankly ... Anyway, we'll see how it goes.

pottonista I quite enjoyed that cheers!

I blame their parents, or mothers in most cases.

If a woman does absolutely everythin around the house for her children, rsther than teaching them to pull their own weight, then they are going to expect any woman in their life to do the same.

If we expect our boys to do their fair share of housework, they will grow up into men who do their fare share of housework.

It's not rocket science.

And equally, a mother who does everything aroudn the house gives the message to her daughters: this is what you will do once you are married too, and so the daughters perpetuate it, far too many women do too much of the housework, while the men don't do it, and the vicious cycle continues.

While a woman does everything, there is no need or incentive for the man to do it.

overmydeadbody shouldn't then the fathers take equal responsibility?