to wonder why most women marry men who don't know what teamwork is?

[frgr]

Yes, and I chose "most women" very specifically in my post title. Because that's what it feels like, and I'm frustrated at seeing the same story played over and over again on these boards plus in real life.

Just replied to a poster who was talking about feeling extremely underappreciated by her DH, feeling like he is basically just another pair of feet to tidy around. Then clicked on another thread - a woman talking about her husband feeling pressure as the main breadwinner who still expects her to do all housework, childcare, time off for appointments, school paperwork, homework supervision if she goes fulltime. As I was reading, my mobile beeped with a text message from my BF since primary school - an update on her and DH's trial separation prompted by, basically, him refusing to do anything non-work related when he gets home, including putting his own shoes away "because she's a SAHM and that's her job".

Why why why why do so many women continue to marry and have children with men who treat them this way? Do we need to suggest "teamwork" training as part of the pre-nup preps?

I recently moved out of OH's house into my own flat because of arguments about housework...only the roles were reversed - it was me not doing things when/the way HE wanted, not the other way round.

From my experience there, there's a piece in this whole topic about control, stating what you want clearly and jointly making an effort. It was weird for me to be living in a place that didn't feel 'mine', and as a result I sometimes didn't see how things 'should' be, perhaps because it wasn't me who organised the house in the first place. Added to that, he sometimes struggles to say 'It's really important to me that X happens regularly' etc. Don't know if that sheds any light on men who don't help. Probably not - some men were just brought up to assume they'll be waited on hand and foot, I think.

Oddly enough, I grew up with a useless/undomesticated dad and kind of assume sometimes that men will resist or ignore housework. Perhaps that's why I got together with a man who's more of a hausfrau than me. He was staying at my place all last week, and when I said something about wanting to see him tomorrow evening but needing to do a bit of cleaning as well, he said 'Let's pour ourselves some wine, put the radio on and do it together'. Even though I know what he's like, I nearly fell off my seat. It's lovely when someone behaves in a way that doesn't reinforce one's unconscious assumptions, I think.

Just wanted to share a different perspective.

What I really hate is the expectation that the woman should ask the man in simple terms when a job needs doing, and if she doesn't, it's her fault it doesn't get done and she has no right to be angry. Wtf? He has eyes doesn't he? If a man doesn't see the bin needs taking out it's because he bloody well doesn't want to.

I absolutely refuse to take on the mental burden of the housework and issue a list of demands like he is a child. Oh, and then get accused of nagging. Bloody hate that word - there is no excuse for using it. Ever.

Rant over.

Yulephemia, as other have said here, this could be true if those men married straight from home and parents were the kind who believed that asking kids to do something around the house is equal to slavery and abuse.

Nowadays though, I would guess most men have lived by themselves at least for some period of time. Managed not to starve, have clean clothes and to remember when one should put bins out. Then they move in together with a woman...and suddenly forget how all this works. And why? In many cases, it's the women. I was very careful not to become some perfect housewife when I moved in with my DH. No "oh no don't you move, I will wash your socks and cook a 5 course meal while you drink beer on the sofa". Or, to be more precise, this can happen, but tomorrow I will be the one sitting on the sofa waiting for my 5 course meal and clean socks.

And it worked, he does the lions his fair share of housework and not only, he does it voluntarily and without me pointing out things that need to be doing. It is not really a rocket science to figure out that dirty dishes will need some help to get clean.

I'm sure he would be far more lazy if I had quickly taken responsibility for everything domestic and maybe sometimes asked him to "help me with something". Hels? Me? It's our house and our dirty dishes, so why the heck should it be my responsibility to see that they get clean?

Makes me go every time someone says how great my DH is, cooks and does laundry. Their DHs, apparently, don't know how to use the washing machine.
My DH is an engineer. He also drives, is able to use the computer and TV-remote. I would have to be really gullible to believe him if he tried to claim that he does not manage with those 2 buttons on the washing machine.

but sitdown, surely if things start out equal, it must be possible to notice when things are sliding and get back to a more equal footing? And also possible to explore assumptions about childrearibg before it happens - including observing your partners own upbringing/family patterns?

I do understand that if working patterns become dramatically unequal afer having a family, this can create an expectation that the partner who is working less outside the home should pick up the slack in it. Some of this may be justified (if dh was home all day and I wasn't, I'd certainly expect him to do more of the cooking, washing and cleaning than me - assuming he is not looking after preschoolers). This is one reason I've been keen that we maintain an equal balance of work outside the home - so that it is easy for me to insist on fair shares of domestic work too.

Also, its true that some couples consider teamwork to mean - he earns the money, she looks after the house and children. It wouldn't work for me but it does work for some people.

As far as I can tell most men are sufficient enough when we first meet them, so something does happen - and it's normally when a woman stays at home (even whilst just on maternity leave) and starts doing all jobs as part of the routine - which just sets the trend for the future.

I think most men would pitch in - especially if they were told asked to. I don't think it's intentionally disrespectful on the mans part - but if they don't address the issue as a couple then both parties are equally to blame IMO. If the man refuses to help after it's been discussed then yes, he's probably a disrespectful so and so.

I'm also depressed by some of the things I read here, it's like feminisim never happened, considering the assumptions of some men, along the lines of 'child care is my wife's job', 'if she's at home at all day, surely she can clean the house as well'

Before I got married, my Dad explained to me that there are four main things couples argue about:

Money
Children
Work
Sex

(not necessarily in that order, LOL)

and you should work out what your attitudes/ expectations are and whether they're compatible before you decide to get married. It was some of the best advice I ever received!

Speaking of my Dad, I agree with the poster who gets angry when people say her husband is some kind of saint when he does things that everyone should kind of expect. People say the same thing to me about Mr Mustard Seed and I have to exercise massive self constraint to avoid going on a massive rant along these lines. Anyway, because my Dad was a single parent who brought us kids up, women were always fawning over him... "oh, isn't he brilliant, does all the cooking and cleaning and bringing up the kiddies", ignoring the fact that tons of women were doing the same thing but they thought my father deserved some sort of special praise by virtue of being male! I always put this down it being the 70s/80s, but things haven't necessarily moved on!!

I do think there's a certain amount of expecting the amount of housework to stay the same, somehow, even when a baby or several messy school children have been added to the mix.

DH certainly was under the impression that because he didn't want his shirts ironing and tended to wash his own tea cup, he was somehow pulling his weight still, even if another four people's damp bedding was engulfing the landing and the baby was strewing handfuls of catfood across the carpet.

Things may start out equal but women can multi-task better than men and so end up including his clothes in the load of washing, cooking a meal whilst entertaining the little ones at the kitchen table, ironing whilst supervising homework, chatting on the phone whilst tidying up with the other hand etc etc.

Men will usually perform only one task at a a time so they get less done and it's less stressful for them too.

Maternity leave also interrupts the pattern of both working and sharing the taks at home.

My dh just seems to have subconciously believed and still does that marriage and babies changes everything. It puts him in his Father's shoes and his father worked all week, regularly played/watched sport at the weekend. I however am not fulfilling his Mother's role in facilitating this scenario and this makes it all a minefield for our marriage. I'm not conforming to the supporting role that enabled his Father to have the life that he did. His Mother did voluntary work which dh refers to as "my mum worked too".

Same here than quite few others.
Things changed when we had children and I went on ML. Got even worse when I was made redundant after dc2 birth...

Now he apparently does me a favour when i have to go away 2 days for work once in a while, very easily forgetting that he has done the same thing for 6 years (from the month dc1 was born )and that was supposed to be acceptable (so I needed to 'allow' him some 'me' time during the weekend to recover ).
The worst bit is that I know he is totally self sufficient and his mum told me she did her best to teach him to be 'housetrained' (her words) so that her son wasn't just sitting around, expecting his wife to do everything for him (ie my FIL).
Expectations from our society as a whole has a vey big part to play. Plus, this is so easy for them isn't it? Wife's at home. She does all the housework (even though she should 1- be restig to recover from pg and birth, 2- be able to give 100% of her attention to said child, not to the housework). Then why would you like to change things? It is soooo confortable!

Mr Snugglepops has a mother who did everything for him. When she stays she irons MrSnugglepops shirts! She acts like a Matriarch of the family now like she should waited on and I think it is because she did so much of the share of the work earlier on in her family.

I refused to do anything other than my fair share when I met my DH.

I have never ironed a shirt or any of his clothes - as why would I? Unless he is very ill or something, he is perfectly capable.

We now have a cleaner but have generally shared the chores equally. I am messier than he is, which I try work on.

Many people comment how lucky I am which I am but surely it can not be that unusual?

My father did his fair share too so I was never going to think it is normal that women run around doing everything.

Sorry, but I don't believe the myth that 'women can multi-task, and men can't'. Studies have shown that NO-ONE can multi-task effectively, unless they are doing very routine tasks that require little brain-power, then EVERYONE can multi-task (no sex differences).

This is just crap, probably invented by men to justify WHY they have left women doing the majority of childcare, domestic chores etc even if they hold down a job!

I don't buy into the whole' men don't know what needs ot be done', 'men can't multitask' and others generalizations like this.

When they are at work they can do it, so they should be able to tidy up, clean etc.. at home.
eg : DH doesn't seem to be able to know which clothes belong to which child. BUT at work, he can recognize within a milisecond 2 very similar parts from a truck engine and tell which one belongs to which engine.
Does it mean that men loose any type of intelligence once the are in their own home? no, they just can't be bothered because we (women) do it for them anyway for the reasons LeQueen mentioned (Things need to be done and we feel that everything would stop if we weren't).

Actually, it is always interresting to see that a man who is doing very little in the home can suddenly become very proficient if they don't have the choice (like in the case where his wife is serioulsy ill in hospital or if she, unfortunatly, dies)

Second all those who get "you are so lucky" comments. In all the circles of friends I am in DH is looked at with awe by other women for the amount of stuff he does. Find it a depressing indictment of their husbands/partners as I had assumed he was pretty normal apparently not. Think you need to be careful who you choose to marry though in my twenties I binned several men when it became apparent they were little mummies boys.

What does annoy me is the eye rolling acceptance by some women - particularly the high powered ones I used to work with - who essentially did everything and held down big jobs.

God, I can't tell which clothes belong to which child either. Or remember which child doesn't eat tomatoes/butter/mash/tuna.

I suspect I am fundamentally a bloke when it comes to domestic matters. Sadly, DH is not desperately housewifely either (he can knit a mean sweater, but that doesn't qualify him as Domestic God of the Year in quite the way he might like).

I'm at home more. Therefore I bark my shins on the piles of crap more. Therfore, like it or not, I do a bit more than my fair share of kicking the piles under the sofa instead of clearing up.

Its because the ones I know in RL seem to be desperate and will do anything for a man.

I know someone who rushes home from work at 6.30 when her husband finishes at 4 and has to make him tea from scratch or he goes mad (and by mad he actually shouts at her!!). She is in her 50s and all us young ones think she is a bit mad and wonder why she doesnt tell him to fuck off lol.

My husband sort of 'daddies' me I suppose in some ways as he irons my clothes and lays them out for me in the morning, and I do mummy him in other ways (eg bills, finances). I think as long as you each do some each though then you can spoil each other in little ways. Its only bad when one doesnt appreciate you like my example above.

See, I admit this and expect falimng or someone saying 'Just clear it up! How hard can it be?', whereas if I say he's equally hopeless, someone will tell ME to make him do it or excuse his poor male brain.

S'not fair. Sob.

Falimng??

flaming.

I certainly wouldn't have married DH if he didn't pull his weight around the house. Granted we have no kids yet but he washes up when I cook, does his own ironing (and voluntarily does mine), puts washing on (leaving or asking about anything that looks delicate so it doesn't get ruined), hangs it out, puts it away (although he does have a bit of a mental block about towels and sheets which tend to stay heaped in a pile in the spare room), changes sheets etc. We have a cleaner once a week as well, but that doesn't take away the day to day grind of keeping on top of things.

I definitely have the 'taking-over' gene and I have learnt over the past few years to be careful not to take responsibility for everything. Or to rubbish his efforts. I find that if I say thank you nicely and continue to do it to my own standards that he generally falls in line.

This obviously only works where he does more than a half arsed job of something in the first place and also because he is a decent human being who looks around him and cares for both me and our home. I also find it helps to be less passive-aggressive about it and say "Shall we tidy up for half an hour together?" rather than stomping off to the bathroom to clean and sigh (I was and still can be v proe to this!).

I'd say that the majority of my friends have OHs who are equally competent around the house. There are a few that I reckon play up to the 'poor man - I don't understand' or the 'I'm a man - that's beneath me' but not many. Will it change when we all have kids? Don't know - but I'm certainly alive to the issue now.

It is entirely, I think, because it reflects badly on the woman, not the man, if domestic duties are not carried out.

My DH pulls his weight. He's messy, very messy, but I tolerate the tidying up because he does his fair share. We're also getting a cleaner when I go back to work.

But, all three of us have been ill over the past week, in fact DH is off work today with it. The house is consequently a complete shit tip as none of us have had the energy to tackle more than the absolutely necessary i.e. looking after DS.

DH doesn't care though - he knows it'll get sorted eventually. I deeply care because the window cleaners are coming and they will see it. If PIL walked through the door they would immediately think I had been shirking, not DH. (MIL phoned yesterday and told me to make DH lots of hot drinks if he was ill, not even asking how I was ). My mother, despite her best intentions, would be the same.

Agree about the wife being blamed Hark. I worked in an office where several of the secretaries openly bitched about a colleagues wife because the "poor man" had to iron his own shirts and they were abit creased. Said wife had recently had her third child but that was ignored. I was a singleton at the time but was that this was the prevailing attitude.