to be shocked that my (childless) friend said this?

[tjandpootle]

Last weekend I went to stay with an old friend and her DH (they don't have any kids - their choice). We took our 2 pre-school DCs, as did two other couples (also friends of ours).

None of the kids were especially naughty but they do come with a certain degree of chaos, mess and noise. My friend's DH literally followed the kids around with a hand-held hoover, tutting audibly all the time. At one point he ripped into my DS as he'd knocked a small bowl of crisps on the floor.

In the morning my friend made an audible dig about being woken up by screaming kids - my DD (not yet 1) woke up at 7am which is late for her and was just making normal chatty noises, not screaming.

When we went to leave, my friend said "The problem with the world today is that children have it too easy and we need another war to galvanise British spirit and teach them one or two things about survival."

I was and lost for words.

Does she have a point or am I right to be ?

I think if you don't have children you just don't "get" it. I always say that you can identify those with young children in a room by asking who thinks 7am is a lie in

I have some child free friends who are child free by choice, but have good relationships with the children of their friends and are welcoming in their homes. We strike a good bargain. They do their best to move anything expensive or bloody dangerous before we come around with the children and we do our best to make sure the children don't get to anything that's been missed.

I used to have a child free friend who made that choice because she'd never got passed the stage of being a child and just wasn't able to put anyone else but herself first. She always had the attitude that she would never make any adjustments when we visited her as it was up to us to make sure that the toddler was 'under control at all times' (her words).

Compared to her, your friend is a pussycat. That friend's worst comment was "Why are people so bothered when kids die, its not like they're more important than adults FFS". Not surprisingly I'm not friends with her any more!!

I kind of agree with you magichomes but it is impossible to keep your eye on your children all the time when you're round at someone's house. If you want your guests to do that, then they may as well not come to see you as they sure as hell won't be sitting having a conversation with you.

My DS is generally pretty well-behaved but I would ask people to move teeny precious breakable things and I would be mortified if he spilled Ribena (but wouldn't give it to him to be honest!)

The wording of what she said seems rehearsed and much thought about... was she standing on a podium. My kids annoy me so can't blame her but you keep thoughts like that to yourself if you want to keep your friends. Ask for asking 3 families to stay?!

I can't imagine why on earth they invited you all to stay if they were going to be so quick to be upset.

It's extremely off to ask people to be your houseguests and then to be rude about them (or their children).

Do you think maybe one of the OP's friends is having a broody wobble on the whole no-kids stance, and the other one decided to go for drastic 'Are you sure? Are you really really sure?' measures?

Interesting reading following my post, thanks ladies.

Just to put a couple of things that people have mentioned in context. The war comment does sound bonkers. However, my friend is ex-Army and I guess it is an obvious point of reference for her. Still not excusable though.

I went to Uni with the friend (and the other families) and we have been having this get-together ever since then. Pre-kids it used to descend into drunken hilarity, we'd play silly games and sleep in until 11am the next day. I get the impression that every year she is hopeful that we can recreate this and gets pissed off and disappointed that we all fall asleep in the sofa after a couple of vinos and the kids have gone to bed . This probably added resentment to her already judgmental attitude towards our kids.

As for the noise my DD made - she called out 'Mummy' when she woke up but was in the same room as us so I got her up straight away. Once downstairs she 'chatted' at normal levels (you can't expect a 23 month old to whisper) but I guess it would've been enough to wake someone up who was used to silence.

They are very old friends and part of a wider group of good friends. I don't think we'll be parting company completely but I would imagine the tradition of our Xmas get-together will sadly come to an end.

It's really hard to socialise like that once children are around. Can you posibly meet up having left the children with relatives?

Judging by MN, huge numbers of people have little patience with other people's children - everyone moans about playdates, children who sleep over, children with different habits from their own. It's a rare non-parent that wouldn't feel the same, and maybe you and the other friends who have kids have your Mummy and Daddy Goggles on and are not seeing it from your hosts pov.

Even more bonkers to work in the forces and think that the slaughter of millions is a god remedy for early wakers. Perhaps you should call her and say 'sorry the kids seemed such hard work - of course in the war people had more to worry about than crumbs on the carpet - bring back the trenches!'

"It's my house, you are my guest - why is it my responsibility to re-arrange my house to accommodate your child? "

It's your responsibility not to invite my child to your home unless you can make her welcome.

I feel no entitlement to visit anyone's home, and if people don't want children touching their precious things, then they can meet me in a cafe or come to my home.

But if you invite a child over, and you are not prepared to rearrange your things, and you are going to be furious with the "entitled" parent if their child touches things you don't want touched, then you are a very, very poor host.

Yanbu

Your children were invited guests, and yet were made to feel most unwelcome.
Going forward, such "old", good friends should be made aware of how they made you feel. Otherwise they'll think their behaviour was right, it will happen again and resentment will grow on both sides.

It's not that you sound "uptight' magic so much as you sound very angry about perfectly normal things and seem to have a weird fetish about children being controlled through fear.

YANBU They are! Why invite kids around with this lack of understanding!

YANBU at all

would have made me want to go sprinkling crumbled pombears on all the soft furnishings - how sad for them that they can't relax and let a little chaos in to their lives!

I am surprised they invited a bunch of people with young kids to stay. Sounds like a generous idea gone wrong.
YANBU to be offended by their poor manners but YABU to expect them to understand kids as we live in a country where people without kids are notoriously intolerant of children. Don't go back but perhaps try and have a quiet word. Perhaps your DC's were more disruptive than you think they were..?

It's kinder for everyone if people with children, especially several families at once, don't visit people without children. What's normal in one person's world is thoroughly disturbing to someone who's not used to it. Someone who says "Your children are messing up my house" isn't placated by hearing "Yes, but that's what children do."

In fact if the childless ones visited the families, they'd probably say "This place is a madhouse, we have to go home." And maybe they should.

I think it is unreasonable to expect the children to be quiet and not make any mess. I am quite strict with my children and at other peoples houses I tend to keep a close eye on them. If I saw something that I thought might get damaged or broken by accident I would probably say to my friend "I am a bit concerned the kids might knock this over - you might want to think about moving it?". I think parents need to be in control but you can't expect kids to behave like adults as they are not. They are boisterous sometimes and excitable. They are not necessarily trying to be naughty they are just having fun and aren't old enough to understand the consequences of thier actions.

Magichomes - no offence meant but not having kids of your own who are you to judge. You have no idea what it is like and how your kids would be. You are being quite rude IMO.