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Original poster

to be shocked that my (childless) friend said this?

144 replies

tjandpootle · 07/12/2010 09:54

Last weekend I went to stay with an old friend and her DH (they don't have any kids - their choice). We took our 2 pre-school DCs, as did two other couples (also friends of ours).

None of the kids were especially naughty but they do come with a certain degree of chaos, mess and noise. My friend's DH literally followed the kids around with a hand-held hoover, tutting audibly all the time. At one point he ripped into my DS as he'd knocked a small bowl of crisps on the floor.

In the morning my friend made an audible dig about being woken up by screaming kids - my DD (not yet 1) woke up at 7am which is late for her and was just making normal chatty noises, not screaming.

When we went to leave, my friend said "The problem with the world today is that children have it too easy and we need another war to galvanise British spirit and teach them one or two things about survival."

I was Shock and lost for words.

Does she have a point or am I right to be Shock?

OP posts:
TattytinsellooksDevine · 07/12/2010 11:42

Has anyone ever had a poke around on the child free by choice board on iVillage?

Generally its populated by perfectly reasonable people who made the decision to remain child free as a lifestyle choice they are happy with.

But there are a small handful of really scornful, bitter sounding people. I believe they are genuinely child free by choice (I've seen one of them talking about her coil for instance) but their reasons for being child free seem to stem from an absolute hatred of children. And, even more to the point, of "mummies" - its like they are terrified of becoming one so they mustn't.

Interesting psychology behind it. Just to say though generally speaking I think child free people by choice or otherwise are fairly well rounded and reasonable people with regards to children - most have some in the family if nothing else and know how they "work"...

PinkElephantsOnParade · 07/12/2010 11:45

Yes, I agree Tatty that the friends of the OP are not in the normal range of child free couples.

My SIL and her DH are childfree by choice but they dote on their nephews and nieces.

They have just decided that having their own kids does not fit into their lifestyle, and that's fine.

JamieLeeCurtis · 07/12/2010 11:52

yes, my BIL and GF are childfree by choice and they are incredibly loving and child-centred

spidookly · 07/12/2010 11:52

Even my child-hating childfree friends are nice to my children. I just take pains to make sure they don't have to spend much time together.

Which means I see less of them than I might otherwise for the next... forever.

I don't really understand not liking children, they're just people. But I accept that some people don't, and I can get on fine on that basis.

Being mean to children is entirely different.

And saying things about how wars are brilliant is a true badge of being a complete arsehole.

MissAnneElk · 07/12/2010 12:09

Before we had children, my SIL and nephew came to stay with us. He was about 4. He hardly ate anything when he was here. Wouldn't even eat bread. He is American so the food was a bit foreign to him. I will confess that DH and I were a bit put out by this, I don't think we commented, but I'm sure SIL knew we were. Anyway, along came DD1 who was the fussiest eater in the world and when SIL stayed with us when DD2 was 3 she nicknamed her 'the tyrant'. Blush I will say my DDs are generally easy and well behaved but the thing is if they're not yours you do see their faults. As for the needing another war comment, she is barking!

magichomes · 07/12/2010 12:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

adrenalinejunkie · 07/12/2010 12:20

A lot of people are saying they shouldn't have invited friends with dc to stay but if it was the other way around and they invited there friends but not their dc then the issue would be about dc not being invited no one could go because of baby sitters etc , before I had ds (who is still a baby) I certainly did not appreciate children of relatives spilling things on my carpet putti g their sticky hands on my tv , now I have a child I am more understanding . We are all so in love with our children I think we can't believe that anyone couldn't not love them too , one smile from my ds can
make me instantly forgive a entire sleepless night it might not be the case for someone else. I don't think you should judge your friends so harshly next time they might invite one couple at a time . THe war comment was weird though .

magichomes · 07/12/2010 12:21

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Mumwithareindeertattoo · 07/12/2010 12:23

I think your friend was only joking! Seems she misjudged her audience!

I have 1 baby and 1 toddler and my friends who have the same came to stay and it was chaos. Fun mostly but I was glad when they gone too! That was only for one night and I'm used to the noise of small children. Can't say I'm surprised it was a shock to your friends' systems!

expatinscotland · 07/12/2010 12:23

What Valhalla said.

I'm actually not very keen on young children, babies and toddlers.

I love it when they're like, 5 and can start doing things on their own.

So I'm not in the habit of inviting people with young children to stay myself.

And yes, I have three kids.

spidookly · 07/12/2010 12:30

:o

PMSL @ "look but don't touch"

Don't invite children your home if you expect them to behave like adults.

And no, "look but don't touch" was not a common refrain in my home, thankfully.

I like children, I like that they play with everything they see, I don't give a shit if they make stuff dirty, or make noise, or have a tantrum. I felt the same before I had any of my own.

My sister's architectural models are brilliant toys. Luckily she doesn't take them that seriously.

magichomes · 07/12/2010 12:33

This reply has been deleted

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monkeyflippers · 07/12/2010 12:40

I have a relation with no children (she says through choice but I'm not convinced seeing as she gets tears in her eyes when she talks about it :() who has got to the grand age of 50 something and still thinks that children are to be controlled and will just do what you say!

I realise that she has no direct experience herself and that it is very hard to imagine how difficult parenting can be, but you would think that by that age she would have realised that it's not as simple as that.

Although I do remember being shocked at hearing a friend of mine swearing at her kids when she got angry and it all got on top of her. This was before I had children. I was horrified and it made me feel sick! Now I do it! :(

spidookly · 07/12/2010 12:45

You don't "love little children". Nobody who "loves little children" thinks "look but don't touch" is a reasonable thing to say to a toddler about something you really value and that they are obviously going to want to play with.

People who "love little children" take steps to keep them away from valuable things they don't want broken, rather than expecting parents to perform miracles.

People who "love little children" don't get angry with their parents' "sense of entitlement" to allow their children to exist in the world.

Yes, I have friends. I've never met anyone that wants children controlled in the way you appear to find so appealing.

magichomes · 07/12/2010 12:56

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PinkElephantsOnParade · 07/12/2010 12:57

I agree spidookly, if you don't want a toddler to touch something you really need to keep it out of their reach.

Older children will listen to "look but don't touch" but toddlers are too young to have that much self control.

As a parent I would watch a toddler though, and advise friends to move items that looked at risk.

magichomes · 07/12/2010 13:07

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magichomes · 07/12/2010 13:10

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Housemum · 07/12/2010 13:21

Magichomes - when schools started teach Rights, Respect and Responsibilities!

I fully agree with the principle behind the teaching, that children should know they are not to accept bullying or abuse, but my 7yo DD now assumes she has as much right as an adult in all decisions. The other day I commented to her that her refusal to put dirty washing in a basket and shouting at me was a lack of respect - her answer was that she had a right to her own opinion and I was not respecting her wishes!!

i don't want to go back to the old days of smacking kids that step out of line, but think children should learn that they are learning social skills and the world does not revolve around them. Hard to reinforce when every kids' meal comes with a toy, and there are "princess/prince on board" stickers in cars, and a whole raft of real and TV entertainment available all the time

Back to the OP - very odd comments from friends, surely everyone sees children on tv and realises that they like exploring and playing? And everyone must know that babies wake up early? What planet have they been living on - sounds more like the comments of childless people of grandparent age who are too far removed from knowing any of us "breeders"?

FullaDoll · 07/12/2010 13:24

Yeah - wankers! (Love the fact that you can swear on this site).

adrenalinejunkie · 07/12/2010 13:26

Same here magichomes , I wouldn't dare play with my nannas ornaments or bounce on her settee and if I did I would be told off, if we did not like something that had been cooked for us and didn't try to eat it we would not eat as a result I now will eat almost anything unlike my dh who was pandered to and will hardly eat anything or
try anything new. We all know small children will test boundaries and misbehave but when that child is allowed to wreck your home and the childs parent looks on or is affronted when you tell them to stop swinging on your curtains drives me mad . My parents were strictnwhen it came to manners bedtime
behaviour and meals they were also very
loving and having discipline when needed did us no harm at all.

LaurieFairyonthetreeEatsCake · 07/12/2010 13:28

Genuine question - at what age does 'look but don't touch' have some impact then?

I thought I remembered that from about 2 I wasn't allowed to touch my grandmothers ornaments - am I remembering that wrongly?

theevildead2 · 07/12/2010 13:32

Maybe because you are immune to the noise etc you thought it wasn't as bad as it was? Only curious because you say she said your baby was only making quiet noises, but it seems unlikely your friend would have been woken in another room if she had been that queit.

Horton · 07/12/2010 13:34

at what age does 'look but don't touch' have some impact then?

I have an unusually biddable and well-behaved four year old (she just came like that - I don't think it's anything I did) and she wasn't able to reliably look but not touch before about three. Prior to that, she really really meant to do what I said but somehow just couldn't stop herself or forgot what I'd just said. Sometimes I used to find her with a finger pointing at something she wasn't allowed to touch and saying 'No no NO! Mustn't touch, must not touch," to herself while she got closer and closer all the time. She honestly couldn't help it.

I know lots of perfectly nice well-behaved children (with sensible parents who set appropriate boundaries etc) who wouldn't have been able to reliably not touch something before four or so, and some much later.

I think the OP's friends are nuts, frankly. Why would you invite six pre-school children to stay all at once if you find it so stressful? And the war comment is just bonkers.

SuzieHomemaker · 07/12/2010 13:39

The refrain in my house is 'eyes not fingers' as in you look with your eyes and not with your fingers. We used this from the age dot. I can still recall seeing my DCs wander round my office, saying this to them and seeing 3 pairs of hands shoot behind backs. They would have been around 3, 4 & 7.

We had to keep saying it though. Sometimes ven say it now and DCs are secondary school age.