to let it bother me so much when couples say "we're pregnant"?

[Schnitzel]

I know this is really petty, but it REALLY gets on my goat. Where did this "we're pregnant" business come from?! I'm probably just being a really miserable git.

"Don't feel bad that the opinion of the professionals is that women cry rape when they lose on every other argument"

Trop - In amongst all the bullshit this line particularly stood out. Is this your opinion? Its not the opinion of any professional I've come across, healthcare or otherwise.

"A horrific birth experience is a horrific birth experience and no less real for that but I'll say it again...it isn't rape."

But there's a difference between a horrific birth experience because that's how birth is sometimes, and one that's horrific because you were assaulted, in a manner very very similar to a sexual assault, while you were giving birth. One is just unfortunately the unavoidable suffering of a natural process that can go wrong, the other is a completely avoidable violation inflicted on you by another person while you were in a vulnerable situation. The fact that they might have had good intentions or acted out of ignorance and thoughtlessness rather than real malice does not really make the result any better.

Maybe rape isn't the best word, but I think the point of it is that it distinguishes such assaults and violations from the sometimes unavoidable pain and trauma of birth.

Confuddled that was me you quoted not mathanxiety, I am sorry for your experience as I said.
Regardless of the circumstances your experience was rape.
My point is that calling a bad birth experience rape does not help those in your situation as I suspect one of the reasons you feel unsure about your experience is the attitude to rape and consent.
You doubted you would be taken seriously as a victim of rape because you were in the car of your own free will? You gave up fighting because it was the path of least resistance? The outcome was always going to be the same...you had no choice.
It was rape and I'm so sorry.

I object to the term 'birth rape' because it does muddy the waters for those in your situation. You were raped, a woman giving birth who;s wishes were ignored is no less hurt but the crime was not rape.

Ephiny, I was typing my response (carefully) when you posted so X posted. I'm not sure we disagree completely.

"I will keep saying it numpty, because for every woman who claims her horrible birth experience is rape there are at least a hundred women who don't report a genuine rape as the one Confuddled described for fear they will not be taken seriously.
And why are they not taken seriously? Because of the horrible attitudes that are being confounded by this dilution of the crime of rape.
You are doing no-one any favours with this 'birth rape' nonsense."

Do you realise that that's exactly the kind of nonsense that used to be trotted out to women who were raped while on a date ('date rape'), raped while drunk, raped while wearing revealing clothing, raped while at a party, raped when they allowed a man into their flat to phone a taxi, or even raped by their husbands in their own homes ('rape within marriage'). The last example was not criminalised until very recently, apparently with a view to reserving accusations of rape for 'real' rape.

For every woman dragged into the bushes and raped by a stranger even today there are a hundred raped by dates or raped by acquaintances or raped by husbands and being told by police and prosecutors that there is apparently a limited supply of credible rape accusations to go around so shut up and get over it. Which is essentially what you are saying in your argument against the term birth rape.

But keep on denying -- and keep on being so misguided that you can't actually see where your argument is taking you.

'Don't feel bad that the opinion of the professionals is that women cry rape when they lose on every other argument.'
What professionals?

mathanxiety are you being deliberately obtuse?

Rape, date rape, rape within marriage, rape within family infact any form of actual rape IS RAPE.

A woman whose wishes and permissions during childbirth are ignored is a woman who has suffered a horrific birth experience. It is still not rape.

The two are serious criminal offences and should not be confused.

They are not both rape however.

I know I was quoting you, I meant to.

Then I don't understand Confuddled. You were raped and it was not your fault. No-one would say otherwise. I'm sorry.

I do not feel any uncertainty about my rape. I called 999 as soon as I got home, was taken straight to the rape suite and gave a full account of it. I was basing what I said on your definition of rape. I have no problem with however people want to label their experiences, I've been told I shouldn't suffer from PTSD because I had a healthy baby and that's all that matters. People who tell me that have as much right to comment on my experiences as I do another persons.

We're not talking about a "woman giving birth who's wishes were ignored" only you seem to be doing that.

You set the definition, not me. Your definition of rape does not fit my situation.

Again, how hard is it for you to understand that it's how the affected woman sees it that counts, not how you see it? If even one woman sees it as 'birth rape', who are you to say otherwise?

It doesn't matter what your opinion of what constitutes rape is or what exactly it is that a woman having the sort of horrific and traumatising birth experience has gone through, just as it doesn't matter that a court would not convict a husband of raping his wife until 1976 -- it was rape in 1975 just the same if that is how the woman experienced it.

No Confuddled, you are confuddled. I am not confused except by your comments.

I have a good handle on my point of view.

I understand where I am coming from, I just don't understand you.

I have asked for my posts to be deleted.

Oh ffs, mathanxiety. The law doesn't recognise 'birth rape' probably because it is a nonsense however it is taking much more seriously date rape, marital rape and familial rape as well as giving more weight to the claimant when it is his word against hers.

This birth rape bollocks is just diluting the argument because is is so far off the mark.

Can you not see that? Don't you have any perception of the wider picture?
Am I dealing with a redtop reader or wtf is this?

Charming, Trop.

Your problem is a complete inability to see any point of view except that of the so-called medical professionals. Ditch those blinkers and try very hard to understand that rape happened if a woman feels she has been raped no matter what the circumstances and no matter what your narrow definition of 'real rape' may be.

While I read half way up, and haven't got to the rape bit yet (I'm getting there) I felt the need to ask what about this statement;

"We've had a boy/girl"?

Surely there was no "we" involved in the actual pushing-for those of being pedantic about the use of language.

I hate we're pregnant too.

Then Star if you would like my response to your comment deleted that is ok with me.

No math its my point of view, its my opinion and its based in fact.

There is a differentiation between an horrific birth experience in which the mother's rights are ignored and rape.

There is. Its not about perceptions, its about fact.

Please stop trying to muddy the waters around what constitutes rape.

For the wider picture, refer to my post of 21:43:19.

The law used not recognise marital rape because it was a nonsense a woman had said "I do" therefore she could not possibly be raped by her husband. I disagree with you on the question of the law taking any form of rape seriously. Continued reliance on the Morgan principle privileges the standpoint of men over that of women with the main concern being that what happens in the woman's mind that she did not consent to sex -- is disregarded by the Morgan mens rea [criminal intent] requirement. Even if the jury believes that a woman did not consent to sex, if it also believes that the man did not intend to rape her, it must acquit. The basic defence to rape therefore is 'intent', with the consent of the victim (another defence) debatable, which is exactly the nonsense you have expressed in defence of the medical professionals.

OK I've read up. Trop I'm with you on this. To be frank, if you don't want random hands inside you, may I suggest a free birth or home birth? I did exactly that for minimal intervention. Gaenos are not rapists and do not abuse women, and unless this happened OUTSIDE of the labour room/sweep/examination of dilation, then it isn't rape. It's ridiculous.

Why are you trying to confuse the matter with marital rape?

We (well most reasonable mumsnetters) accept that marital rape exists as a crime.

That is not the argument.

We are talking about the setting of the woman in a birth situation whos wishes are not respected.

You are off on a tangent.

Yeah let's keep it to "Birth rape" or whatever it's called...rape is a wide enough topic without putting up barriers.

No, rape is about perception. It's how she chooses to frame and define her experience (deeply personal to her obviously) of a birth experience that was horrific to her (because 'horrific' is subjective), where her rights were ignored or where she ended up feeling as if she was some sort of slab of meat from which a team of medical professionals extracted a baby. Herein lies the analogy with rape. It's a fair one, and the use of the term is justified.

My god Lifeforrent, I was beginning to think I was in a parallel universe of unreason! Thank you for that.

OK, one more time.

Marital rape is now a crime.
Marital rape was not always a crime.
The legislation passed in 1976.
If a husband 'had sex with his wife against her wishes' in 1975 it was nevertheless rape despite the fact that the law didn't say it was, and despite the fact that it couldn't be rape by definition since the law made assumptions about married women consenting to sex with their lawful wedded husbands, on the day of marriage and from that day forward.

You saying birth rape does not exist is akin to the law saying marital rape did not exist in 1975.