forget playpens and reins aibu to wonder about those buggies

[2shoes]

where one child is more or less sitting under another, very low to the ground.
saw one today and poor child had no view , it was just looking at the cover of the child up stairs iynwim
why would you put a child there, and has anyone ever forgotton and put shopping on top of the child?

Oh - and for me slings are a pain in the back - mine's dodgy and I don't need extra weight on it.

Blinkin' eck!!

Each to their own I say.

P&T works for my kids, my house, my lifestyle and it's the only double I've had I can push one handed, which is imperative with another 2 on foot/scooters/bikes.

It's a single and a double and can take a buggy board so if you are really cheeky, you can sit one on the front footrest an' all and 4 can ride! :o

....Mine's had a hard life - deffo got my moneys' worth!

sethstarkaddersmum - but you carry that weight from when it's not even a weight, and it increases tiny amounts daily, you do not suddenly acquire a 'weight'. You carry the baby when pregnant and then you sling the same weight (actually minus a lot of fluid etc) on the outside, starting at a teeny addition to your overall body weight and growing very, very gradually. Then by the time the weight is weighty enough to affect you it needs less carrying, and less, and less, proportionally, until they don't need carrying at all.

It works very very well but highlights why it is so important to have good sling help from the off.

I don't see why it has to be either/or. When I had ds I carried him almost everywhere in a sling. We regularly used to walk the 3 1/2 miles in to town and get a bus back. I used a pushchair when we went to the supermarket as there's no bus and it's a 7 mile round trip.

Now I'm about to have another baby and despite being pretty evangelical about my sling (a Connecta in case anyone's interested :)) I've bought a P&T. I couldn't walk 7 miles with a sling while pushing a pushchair, nor could I expect ds who's 2 to walk that far. I'm sure I'll still use my sling as I love it, but it's no longer practical for every situation. Getting a P&T will give me a lot more flexibility, especially since we don't have a car and they seem to be a lot easier to use on buses.

thereisalightanditnevergoesout - fair enough that is your choice, but many people with back/neck/shoulder problems carry very successfully and find it less of a strain than buggy pushing.

I have helped many people continue/begin to carry including people with spina bifida, pgp, spd, slipped disks, hernias, recent shoulder surgery, fused vertebrae and all manner of other problems, including being wheelchair bound or on crutches - all in consultation with a medical professional. For many people, using a sling is far less strain than carrying in arms, or pushing a pushchair. And for others, such as people I have helped who need to use wheelchairs or crutches, the only way they can take their child out by themselves.

Having medical problems does not preclude sling use and in many cases carrying can actually help.

NormalityBites, I have SPD that didn't go away between pregnancies and a sling definitely caused me less pain than a pushchair (this is one of the things that does worry me about buying a P&T).

NormalityBites - I have tried previously - but I'm sitting here now with 5 weeks to go until DC4 arrives with a burning pain under my right shoulder blade - I've been going to the Chiropractor every 3 months for years for adjustment. I can put my back out just sneezing!!

You're right about buggy pushing, too - not to mention loading the blinking thing in an out of the boot throguhout the day!!

Normality - the theory (start with a small weight and it increases very gradually) makes perfect sense but in practice there are often interruptions - eg when I was pregnant with all 3 of mine I had hyperemesis which meant that the physical exertion of so much as lifting a child would make me throw up, so I would have a long interruption for pregnancy during which time the toddler had grown and it took a long time to get fitness back. Or with ds2 (born last Oct) the paths were icy for well over a month in the big freeze so again my carrying was interrupted and I never got on as well with slinging him as I did with dd who I had carried consistently from when she was new.
I'm sure someone 100% committed to carrying could overcome all these things but why would you be when you already have the P&T?!

I completely agree with you Normality. I do wonder how some posters on here think how women in poor, rural Africa manage to walk miles every day to fetch water while managing babies at the same time. They don't have buggies.

Like so many other things to do with parenting the cultural norm is so highly ingrained that people think it is absolutely impossible not to adhere to it.

Seth, I'd disagree with your "fitness" idea - I am a 20/22 and regularly walk 4 miles with my 10 month old in a sling. I can't jog more than about 5 ft but have no problem at all with the sling

I never suggested that you should do so MyLifeIsChaotic.

I never suggested anyone should do anything. I have provided information. Having a good sling (one with which you could carry either your 2yo or your 5mo on your front or your back, or even at a push both simultaneously would increase your transport options greatly. If you don't want your transport options expanded, that is excellent for you.

But for all the people here bemoaning the inconvenience, stress, weight of a double buggy - of which there are many - there are a lot of other reasonable options, about which I am trying to give information.

As I have said upthread, there are a lot of sling myths - but I stand by the statement I made previously that a good sling would be a vital asset to a majority of buggy users, single or double, if they were able to access correct information and help with usage.

please insert ) after 'simultaneously'

I second that. I chucked out our buggy about a week after buying my first wrap sling, it's always far less bother to use the sling than unfolding a buggy, clipping on the seat and then manoeuvering it round shops. I have never looked back.

I'm not suggesting that it's the only option people should consider, far from it, but it's a shame that people don't really consider slings at all. Maybe because the better, wrap style ones aren't available in mothercare ?

Fibilou - if you can walk 4 miles with or without a sling you are clearly not completely unfit, no matter what size you are (and being size 20 wouldn't stop someone having cardiovascular fitness and good muscles). After an HG pregnancy I struggled to even lift my toddlers, let alone carry them any distance. There is no sling on earth that would have given me that ability.

But it would MyLifeIsChaotic. I would imagine your 2yo would walk a reasonable amount. Pop your 5mo on your back and head out for a walk, hands free and unburdened, over stiles and fields and through the woods with the dogs (even the biggest 5mo is a teeny lightweight especially on the back)

If your older one is tired you can pop him in for a while. On the front, or switch them round.

Or take a single buggy, sling the baby when the toddler is tired and push the baby when the toddler is running about - no pushing an empty buggy.

These are all reasonable options, and ones used by people all over the world every day.

Personally I only have one child. However I was a childminder for over a year (I stopped recently due to family issues but hope to start again next year) and minded twins in the older baby-toddler stage in addition to my own child. So I have had day to day care of more than one child, and a lot of experience of slinging one or more children.

We seem to have lurched off topic a bit but the things that I never got the hang of when slinging were
A) going to the loo myself
B) eating a meal/having coffee myself (when baby was too small for a highchair)
C) the interaction between sling straps and backpack straps
D) carrying the shopping, which admittedly is entirely possible, it's just much easier if you can hook it on a buggy
E) climbing up climbing frames/ through tunnels etc after toddler in playgrounds
Prepared to believe that there are ways round all these, but I found them sufficiently tricky that I only used a sling now and again, for the journeys for which it was most suitable.

I got one for 40 quid second hand and it made everyting easier with 2, but i still hate that the little one is uncomfortable at the back and the if I put the big one in the back her head gets bugged by the bar and I can't put her in unless she wants so she tends to go int he front as she can be put in easier and the weight is meant to go at the front.bad things - getting lifts, it fits in no ones boot without a lot of effort and then u can't fit shopping and is a bugger to fold for bus I would rather wait for a clear bus, and it can tip when getting off the bus if you dont reverse off and be careful and if the bus is stopping and you are not facing straight on and get shot forwards down the bus it can tip if a bit off centre. also if toddler hates double raincover and kicks it off u cant cover the one underneath. that is why Im getting a maclaren side by side again. If i had paid the asking price at the shops I would be so disappointed. if u leave one in the back while gettign the toddler out first out of the front it can tip spectacularly scaring the sh*t out of u always take the back person out first,

I love my wrap slings and am about to branch out into MTs....BUT for me, I would be stuck without my P&T.

Could I live without it? Of course I could, its not an ^essential' but its pretty bloody useful.

Normality Your suggestion that MyLifeIsChaotic should have her 2yo walk a reasonable amount, pop her 5mo on her back and head out for a walk 'hands free and unburdened, over stiles and fields' would be ludicrous for me.
My 21 month old has only been walking for nearly 3 months, she can't walk a reasonable distance. And even if she can walk for miles, carrying my 5mo in my wrap sling and then trying to pick up and carry my 21mo over a stile as suggested because I am 'unburdened' would be totally impossible. Add into the mix two dogs and the whole thing falls apart.

I personally think that a 5mo is far too young for a back carry which means I am limited by a baby on my front, this makes picking things up or doing anything that requires both arms much trickier.

If I have my 21mo on my back and my 5mo on my front I can't go on buses because I can't sit down with toddler on my back and because of all the extra weight I'm carrying I can't stand still for any great length on time, ditto trains.
As someone else mentioned, going to the loo with both slinged is nigh on impossible, which means its a right song and dance to have a wee.

I'm all in favour of slings, wish places like mothercare had a full selection of Asian, SSC, rings and wraps etc rather than the just different versions of the Bjorn. However, if you really think slings should be the default and you cannot understand why they are not then you are totally lacking in empathy for other peoples situation.

Having just read that last bit, it sounds like I am being mean to you, but really you must be able to see why slings for 2 small DC is not the default???

Maybe not lack of empathy but lack of understanding, I just cannot fathom how people parent or go anywhere without slings.

As I said it's not an option for all but for the majority it should not be dismissed out of hand.

Most of the trouble you've had there has not been my experience. And I had a late walker as well. I've never had trouble sitting with a toddler on my back, I don't feel 5 months is too young for a back carry but regardless they are tiny on your front at that age, and tbh the stile was merely an example, though my LO would have scrambled happily over it or ducked under the fence if she couldn't manage.....but really with a 5mo on your back you have trouble lifting a toddler? Truly?

And I've never had trouble going to the loo with slung LOs apart from them grabbing the loo roll

I accept you do have this trouble and I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but the bit you zeroed in on was part of a post detailing lots of different options as examples, not as gospel.

I know I get a bee in my bonnet sometimes but you have to admit slings are very misunderstood and maligned by the majority of people, and I like to stand up for them (plus I'd had too much wine when I posted the first sling comment )

My point was that I am not happy to put my 5mo on my back yet, she just isn't big enough IMO. So no I don't have trouble lifting my 21mo when my 5 mo is on my back because she isn't on my back, she is on my front, which does cause problems, like I said.
And yes, she is only tiny but with her on my front it limits what I can do with my arms, they aren't as free as without her. Honestly, I'm not making it up, I find things harder with her in the sling.

You are saying you accept I have these problems but at the same time you dismiss them. Given the stile situation my 21mo would not scramble over or duck under, she still can't climb up a couple of steps!

Anyway, I'm off to bed now. I'm glad you have no problems with your slinging and that you don't need a double buggy but don't think that every P&T owner you see about town is just another clueless-about-slings parent who needs to be educated. It just doesn't suit everyone. If you can't fathom how people parent without slings you really need more imagination!!

"It just doesn't suit everyone. If you can't fathom how people parent without slings you really need more imagination!!" WSS.

Normality, not everyone that doesn't baby wear multiple children for every occasion is ignorant. I used slings almost exclusively for DD, and for DS1 when there was another adult about. I still use them as part of my parenting toolkit. In our current situation, a buggy, and to be precise, a P&T, is more useful in more situations than my slings (I have a woven wrap, a RS and a MT and love them all, for different reasons.) I love carrying my DS2, but I also like being reasonably sane and getting things done in a sensible time frame. Your posts on this come across as lacking empathy a little - what works for you doesn't work for everyone, nor should you expect it to.

Normalitybites - I have to say that I agree with CrunchyFrog.

I love my slings - we never use a buggy and haven't for nearly a year, save for 2 occasions when my back problem flared up badly. I don't like using a buggy for reasons I have already outlines.
I am a big advocate of slings - generally my first question to anyone with any one of a whole range of issues is "Have you tried a sling?". I also agree that there is a lot of resistance to the idea of slings - a lot of people will reject them out of hand just because they are a bit different, and a lot of people will reject them because they feel that the person pushing them is making an implied criticism of the non-sling using person's parenting skills.
However, there are many legitimate reasons why a person may not choose to use one and some of them have been outlined on this thread. Saying "yes but" to everything does rather detract from the legitimate information that you are putting forward as it makes you look completely blinkered on the subject and therefore less credible. There have been times when my back has gone so badly that I have barely been able to lift DS off the floor, never mind get him on my back. If someone experiences those sort of crippling interludes on a regular basis then I would never, ever keep pushing the idea of a sling at them.
I also get a bit impatient about the "what do people do in Africa" argument. I think that the tradtition of sling-using and some of the practices that come with it, is a wonderful thing and something that we can borrow and use in western society, but we have to have some awareness that we are a very different culture, with very different needs and just because people manage without buggies in other countries does not necessarily mean that the use of them in our country is a Bad Thing. Some of the cultures that use slings exclusively are much simpler in their lifestyle and social activities and the women don't make regular journeys to socialise in environments that are not completely centred towards family and children. Someone will no doubt point out that we don't have to do that in our society, but it is unrealistic to expect the majority of women to reject major aspects of our society altogether when they become mothers.
I think it is perfectly possible, even desirable, for an able-bodied mother of one child to use a sling pretty much full-time. I think it is possible for an able-bodied mother of two to avoid a double buggy. I don't think it is realistic to expect every mother to entirely reject the use of a buggy, strap on two hefty children and walk the dogs to Tescos, do a full shop and carry the whole lot home across the fields.