Not to want friends involving my 9 yr olds in our disagreement

[Solo2]

A nasty blow-up is taking place between me and some friends about the fact that my twin 9 yr old sons no longer want to go to theirs to stay overnight - and nor do I want them to stay. They've stayed about twice a year over the last 2 to 3 yrs.

I had tried to do all this without a big show-down by both saying the twins were busy with other things and then, when the friends pushed for a better explanation - that perhaps my sons had outgrown the novelty of staying with this couple, although still enjoyed seeing them.

There have now been several phone messages left by the friends who are 'up in arms' about the situation and who are demanding to talk directtly to my little boys about why they don't want to stay with them anymore.

To me this doesn't feel appropriate. I feel it'd be best for me, as the adult, to sort it out with the other adults and then only at the end perhaps have the children saying their bit. In fact the issues about the friends enforcing their own rules and ideas on my sons without first checking with me that this is OK is right at the centre of me not wanting my sons to stay overnight with them.

I previously posted on here some time ago about these same friends giving alcohol to my sons without my permission and also cups of tea (which they'd also never had), which made one of them vomit copiously. They've driven the children around after they, the adults, have been drinking (alcohol), let one DS stay all day in vomit soaked clothing whilst taking him out and about. They've let them go to the local shops on their own, in the busy city where they live, when my sons have never yet been allowed to cross roads etc independently in a similarly busy city. I feel I should be the one to do these things first with my DCs - not the friends - and do it in my time and in my way, as they're MY children!

The issue for me is not so much that they let or encourage the DCs to do things that I wouldn't but more that they've not discussed anything first with me and checked I'm OK with this. Perhaps worst of all is that they've continued to take a 'parental' role with my DCs even whilst I've been there, in direct opposition to what I've been saying.

One eg is them making DS1 eat everything on his plate, when he was too full to do so and saying if he didn't, he'd have to pay them money. They insisted that he was resisting for psychological reasons. When I intervened and said to DS, as I always do, "only eat what your body tells you you want/ need", the friends became enraged and I ended up paying Ds's 'fine' just to stop the whole horrible situation.

These friends are very controlling but have also been v supportive to me as a single mum. I've continued to let the DCs stay with them as I believed my DSs wanted to go, despite some of my own misgivings but the last 2 times, DCs haven't wanted to stay at all and I've then felt bad about making them go, in order not to upset/ anger the friends. Now I know DCs don't want to go to stay, I don't want to make them.

The friends concerned are an elderly lady of 78 - but who acts more as if she's in her early 60's and her much younger husband in his fifties. She's had children of her own yrs ago but he never has and I've sort of let them off the hook for the way they are because of this. But now the more I think about it, the more it feels as if they want parental control of my DCs (there are LOTS of other incidents exemplifying this) but in a way that is obviously detrimental to my sons.

Is 9 yrs old (one has Asperger's traits BTW) too young to become involved with the current dispute or should I let DCs tell the friends what they really think? The friends are highly likely to express their anger and upset v freely and be emotionally manipulative and try to get DCs to say what they want them to say.

Well done Solo .
If he calls again its completeley acceptable for you to say you dont like the way hes talking to you so your going to end the conversation.

And of course he knew perfectly well what you were saying, my tolerance for people who tell me what ive said is zero.

Sorry just read your previous reply - it all makes more sense now. I can understand that you feel obligated to these people for various reasons, and it must be so difficult for you due to their significance in your life BUT that does not mean you have to compromise your children's wellbeing, or act against your own better judgement.

It will be very difficult for you to make the break, but it does sound like it will be for the best.

Good luck!!

I agree, well done Solo.

Even if she's not all bad, is it healthy or even fun to have a person to whom you are in thrall as a friend? A true friend would not want you to be in that position.

Please do keep reminding yourself (and them, if you choose to talk to them further-I wouldn't) that you do not have to keep arguing the toss, or justify anything. You've communicated a decision to them about overnight visits which is not going to change.

Well done OP!

You see the fact that he became angry-really odd.

Unless I´m mistaken, this is all because two 9yr old boys don´t want to sleep over?

I mean why all the fuss & drama?

I personally think that you need to sit your kids down and ask them to explain exactly why they no longer want to visit this couple because something doesn't sound right to me.

They seem to be keeping it from you and you need to find out. I would be sick with worry if my kids had been sleeping at another persons house for years and suddenly didn't want to go anymore. I don't want to scare you, but that's how I would feel.

How far do you think they will go? If they are really not going to let it go, you will need some backup.

For example, do you need to tell the school that the DCs are not to leave school with anyone but you?

Are they likely to turn up and the house, demanding to have the "family" chat they have been demanding (in which case, give a statement to police, so they can respond in a timely fashion to callouts to make them leave).

It all depends on how nuts they are willing to go. Maybe the examples above look far-fetched, and that is great. However, if they are not, you will hopefully have planned for them.

They have conditioned you, and they have themselves grown to expect to get their way, so they are stropping out. They are probably particularly arsey because what your refusal says about them as people is not the self-image they wanted!

Good luck holding out on them, and getting them to accept the new conditioning! Don't forget the RL support!

OP, well done for standing up to him - if he were a real friend he wouldn't take it personally that your DC don't want to stay over.

And I agree with capricorn, try to get to the bottom of why your DC don't want to stay there anymore. I don't remember reading anywhere on your posts why your DC don't want to stay there. Has this been building up for a while? How were they when they came back after their last visit?

And good luck for when the wife tries to get hold of you. Remember that you know better than anyone what's best for your boys, and anyone who doesn't respect that is no friend of yours or theirs.

She has behaved unethically. Professional guidelines for psychotherapists do not permit a personal relationship with clients. The fact she did this would make me seriously doubt her judgment.

Also, the man's reaction - to accuse your children- straight off the bat is seriously weird, and not the words of someone who purports to care about your children. Arse-covering, I wonder

So this woman was your psychotherapist and has been exploiting the vulnerabilities she found in you through her professional role to manipulate you for 26 years?

She is a predator. You should report her and get her thrown out of her professional body.

Keep her away from your family.

It isn't as straightforward as it sounds here as these are people who have been as close to me as family for most of my life. Also, I've made a complete break from them twice before. The second time, if I remmeber right, was for about 2 yrs.

The woman is like a mother to me and has bene extremely kind and supportive to me - alongside being rather melodramatic and controlling. Her husband is the only ongoing male influence in my sons' lives, other than school teachers and other friends' dads.

From what I've written her, they must sound awful but they've also got a good side to them too. They've given me the only overnight breaks I've had since I had my twins.

They've always been quite OTT and controlling and over the years, I thought I was better able to stand at a distance and watch, rather than get sucked into it.

As regards the childrne not wanting to stay anymore, they're quite relctant but also - which I haven't told the friends, have some reason why they still DO want to go, including being given 'more freedom' and doing more exciting activities.

I am absolutely sure that my DCs haven't been sexually abused or anything like that. The man is a school teacher by profession and last night on the phone was seriously irritated that I wasn't happy for him to act in loco parentis to my twins, when he teaches even younger children every day. I know him very well, as I know his wife v well and I'd say that given he's in a relationship with a much much older woman (who - shock horror - began also as HIS therapist decades and decades ago!), he's not at all the type to incline in any way towards children.

However, I do think they're misguided and controlling and can get quite oevrly emotional and melodramatic. They over-psychologise everything and are from that era of 70's hippy therapy stuff.

The main reason that DC2 doesn't want to stya there anymore is that he has big problems with managing his personla hygiene because of his Asperger's traits and various anxieties and finds it hard to poo in a loo outside home, especially if I'm not there to help out and support him. He returned from one visit to the friends, clearly smelling of poo and they'd done nothing about this and not let him bath/ shower etc. I brought this up with the man last night and he insisted they'd not smelled anything at all and hadn't realised.

Another time, DS2 had been desperate for a poo and held on for 2 days till I came to collect him and then was able to go whilst I was there.

Discussing this incident last night, the man said that he was angry that DS2 had kept lying to him about needing the loo and so I told him that all children lie and expecially if they're anxious and embarassed and DS2 even lies to me about this at times because of anxiety. DS2 has also felt humilated and angry and upset when the friends have repeatedly talked about his poo-issues in front of him and his twina nd with me.

I told the man that this was natural and that no one - least of all a vulnerable child (who also once had a catastrophic accident at school which increased his phobia) would like their bowels discussed publicly. the man was angry about this and saying that it would HELP DS2 to talk about it, as he'd not feel embarassed anymore - which is a load of rubbish!

DS1 doesn't want to stay ther because he was upset that his twin was upset and also because of how controlling these people are, like they keep telling him he MUST eat all the food on his plate when I always tell him onyl to eat what he wants.

So it's stuff like this that makes them not want to stay - which of course is all bad enough - but I'm sure it's nothing worse than this.

Rel. the woman stepping over professional boundaries - she comes from an era of therapy when people did this all the time and this is how she is. She's old now and I wouldn't want to take any steps to cause her harm.

What I want to do is define my boundaries with her and her husband, reclaim my power (sorry if this sounds like psychobabble!) and protect my children. I found it quite liberating to say my bit to the man last night. No further contact with the woman has yet happened and I don't have time anyway tonight to pick up the phone if she rings.

Why do you want it both ways? I can understand why you feel drawn to them in your circumstances, and I can certainly understand why they are drawn to you, as they can manipulate you. Walk away, and stay away. Just send a christmas card every year and leave it at that. You can't keep picking over the relationship and saying oh I'll accept that but not that, it'll never work. Cut your losses now.

I still don't understand why you want to continue in a relationship with these people. They sound like bad news to me. Almost as though their relationship with you and your children is about meeting some kind of needs within themselves. You must put your children first and end the relationship with these people. There are plenty of other people who would be genuine friends in a relationship based on equality. You are not beholden to them and you can cope without their 'help'.

The telephone call yesterday won't be the end of it. They'll come back. They also sound very manipulative so you will need to continue to stand firm.

I understand why, as a single mum, you would be thankful for friends who would give you a night off, but is a night off from time to time really worth all this aggravation?

Regardless of their good qualities, it is very clear that these people are not fit to be looking after your children.

They don't clean them up when they are covered in excrement or vomit, they let them drink alcohol, they drive them around when they've been drinking, they force them to eat food when they are full and then fine them for refusing, they undermine your authority, they let them go to the shops by themselves when you don't - any one of these things would be enough to set alarm bells ringing never mind all of them.

You can't define your boundaries with these people, or reclaim your power, because they only accept the boundaries that they set, and don't want you to have any authority, even as the children's mother. This is a horribly complicated relationship and you and the children are far, far better off out of it.

Don't you have good, healthy friendships with people who don't try to control you and your children? Surely you can see that this 'friendship' is completely unequal, and you and your DC are being treated very badly?

He's very "angry" for someone who is a teacher and should therefore understand childrens' foibles.

Yes, normal people DON'T get angry if children prefer not to stay overnight at their house, and normal people DON'T go round calling children liars. He's a scary man - teacher or no teacher.

And she's a scary psychotherapist - I don't know if she had any formal training, but therapists have a code of ethics and are NOT supposed to have a relationship outside the counselling room. She would have been sruck off for sure.

They do not respect boundaries - in any way - it's all about THEIR needs.

Solo - stay strong and remember who's in charge round here.

Does she really claim to be qualified as a (psycho)therapist ?

I think you're absolutely doing the right thing, gently but very firmly removing contact.

I am concerned however, that they may have some "last cards" to play. Buttons they will try to press, vulnerabilities they may attempt to exploit. Stay calm, stay aware.

Personally I don't think you need to nor should keep giving reasons to these people as to why your boys don't want to stay with them. The fact is they just don't and you don't so that's that. Giving reasons just gives them something to argue against.

It is good to hear that you are feeling more assertive on the phone to them.

If your boys don't stay with them anymore do you know what sort of relationship you want with these people? When you know that you can tell the people what you want and they either accept it or they can eff off.

Good luck, while they may have some nice points, I agree with the person who said they sound like something from Roald Dahl and it really sounds like you are best off out of it.

These people are clearly not meeting your childrens most basic needs when they are with them.

They make an issue of food, they don´t keep them clean & the children are struggling with toiletting themselves whilst there.

"She's old now and I wouldn't want to take any steps to cause her harm."-but you won´t take steps to prevent her harming your children?

Just have nothing more to do with them.

You can´t reset boundaries as they have ground you down too much & tbh brainwashed you.

You should not be considering them at all.

I just finished to read the whole thread, I agree with Animation.

TBH I find their insistance and the way they are reacting really frightening. They do not seem to consider you or your twins at all but their needs exclusively, please do not indulge them!

The more effort you put into giving reasons for your DCs not wanting to stay, the more they'll argue, nit-pick, twist your words, create more drama and generally increase the emotional charge.

You've said your piece to them. They can either accept that or not. I'd really very strongly suggest you discuss this with them no further.

It doesn't matter what you say to them you're not going to change their opinion on this. They see you as a child who's doing something wrong and they cannot accept that. They believe that they know better than you and that justifies (in their minds at least) their bullying of you.

Give up trying to get them to see your point of view. Let it go.

Frankly Solo I'm worried for you. Very worried. I think you have been genuinely brainwashed and blinded by these people. Go over this thread again and look, really look at some of the responses. Really try to imagine what you would say from the outside if advising a friend in the same position. These people are very dangerous to you and your children and your must, must learn to trust yourself and your instincts. Cut all contact with them and make a voluntary statement to the police. Because like others, I guarantee that they will try increasingly dubious tactics to get to your children. Your only responsibility is to your children. It's time to step up to the plate and take on that responsibility. They need you to protect them, and the only safe way I can see to do that is to get these people out of your lives, completely.

These people are not right.

As far as I know there has NEVER been a time when it has been acceptable for a psychotherapist to have personal relationships with patients. Perhaps regulation has been a little lax in the past and predators like this have been able to get away with it. But it has never been accepted practice.

This man does not behave like any teacher I have ever met. If he was teaching my child (especially one with aspergers) I would insist on him being moved to another class or remove him from the school. He is causing your DS real psychological harm. Keep him away from your kids.

Also, you say this woman is more like a mother to you, but my mother has NEVER behaved in this way and if she did I would cut all contact with her.

I think this woman has used her position of trust to brainwash you into thinking her behaviour is normal. Please believe me, it isn't.

Not sure if any inappropriate sexual behaviour has occured (and YOU cannot be sure either, teachers and psychologists have been found guilty of this in the past). To find this out would need some very sensitive probing as DCs often find it very hard to tell when this has happened. Threats are often used to make them keep quiet. They may need some REAL professional help with this one.

But what is certain is that the people are subjecting your DCs to serious psychological abuse.

Don't even THINK of allowing these two loons to have contact with your DCs again.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE protect your kids.

I'm assuming you've made up your mind that your boys won't be going back to their house.

But this pair strike me as masters of manipulation and liable to step it up and change tactics - from intimidation, to charm, to 'you owe us', to 'I'm hurt'...

They could run rings round you, given half the chance - so my advice would be to not feed it. Just don't give them pie. What you said yesterday - you did good, and that should be the end of the matter.

Look to your future now, and to other supports.

Love and control are opposing things. You don't think it is okay to control beloved adults. Someone who does that does not love you, and they have no idea whatsoever about boundaries if they are trying to involve small children in this over their mother's head.

Twins as a single mother - my God, no wonder you appreciated support. But you still ARE a single mother to twins, and they are undermining, not supporting you.

Sorry, but I think you owe it to your sons to break contact here.