Not to want friends involving my 9 yr olds in our disagreement

[Solo2]

A nasty blow-up is taking place between me and some friends about the fact that my twin 9 yr old sons no longer want to go to theirs to stay overnight - and nor do I want them to stay. They've stayed about twice a year over the last 2 to 3 yrs.

I had tried to do all this without a big show-down by both saying the twins were busy with other things and then, when the friends pushed for a better explanation - that perhaps my sons had outgrown the novelty of staying with this couple, although still enjoyed seeing them.

There have now been several phone messages left by the friends who are 'up in arms' about the situation and who are demanding to talk directtly to my little boys about why they don't want to stay with them anymore.

To me this doesn't feel appropriate. I feel it'd be best for me, as the adult, to sort it out with the other adults and then only at the end perhaps have the children saying their bit. In fact the issues about the friends enforcing their own rules and ideas on my sons without first checking with me that this is OK is right at the centre of me not wanting my sons to stay overnight with them.

I previously posted on here some time ago about these same friends giving alcohol to my sons without my permission and also cups of tea (which they'd also never had), which made one of them vomit copiously. They've driven the children around after they, the adults, have been drinking (alcohol), let one DS stay all day in vomit soaked clothing whilst taking him out and about. They've let them go to the local shops on their own, in the busy city where they live, when my sons have never yet been allowed to cross roads etc independently in a similarly busy city. I feel I should be the one to do these things first with my DCs - not the friends - and do it in my time and in my way, as they're MY children!

The issue for me is not so much that they let or encourage the DCs to do things that I wouldn't but more that they've not discussed anything first with me and checked I'm OK with this. Perhaps worst of all is that they've continued to take a 'parental' role with my DCs even whilst I've been there, in direct opposition to what I've been saying.

One eg is them making DS1 eat everything on his plate, when he was too full to do so and saying if he didn't, he'd have to pay them money. They insisted that he was resisting for psychological reasons. When I intervened and said to DS, as I always do, "only eat what your body tells you you want/ need", the friends became enraged and I ended up paying Ds's 'fine' just to stop the whole horrible situation.

These friends are very controlling but have also been v supportive to me as a single mum. I've continued to let the DCs stay with them as I believed my DSs wanted to go, despite some of my own misgivings but the last 2 times, DCs haven't wanted to stay at all and I've then felt bad about making them go, in order not to upset/ anger the friends. Now I know DCs don't want to go to stay, I don't want to make them.

The friends concerned are an elderly lady of 78 - but who acts more as if she's in her early 60's and her much younger husband in his fifties. She's had children of her own yrs ago but he never has and I've sort of let them off the hook for the way they are because of this. But now the more I think about it, the more it feels as if they want parental control of my DCs (there are LOTS of other incidents exemplifying this) but in a way that is obviously detrimental to my sons.

Is 9 yrs old (one has Asperger's traits BTW) too young to become involved with the current dispute or should I let DCs tell the friends what they really think? The friends are highly likely to express their anger and upset v freely and be emotionally manipulative and try to get DCs to say what they want them to say.

This situation sounds much more like a difficult parental relationship, the way you describe it here. I suspect the same advice applies, though

Like everyone else, I think you need to step away from this couple.

I understand you probably feel rather obligated to them for past help (I'm assuming because you're a single parent of twins). But just because they helped you before doesn't mean they're entitled to treat you and your children badly now.

I think they might be trying to push you out, too. Don't let them. It's NOT ungrateful of you to stick up for your own children's rights and wishes.

OP, this really doesn't sound like a healthy relationship for you or your DC to be having with this couple. I understand why you would want your DC to have 'grandparents', but these people are controlling and bullying you and completely refusing to respect the boundaries that you are setting as the mother of your boys.

Friendship and family are about mutual respect, trust and love, and there doesn't seem to be very much of any of that going on here. Please stand up for yourself and your boys and don't take any more crap from these people. Whatever good they've done for you in the past is outweighed by the danger they've put your children in, and the lack of respect they show you. You and your DC are better off without them.

I think I remember your previous thread
Please tsand up to these people
Do you have other friends/support in your life now?

distance yourself and your children from these people they are beyond wierd, they truly are.

If they persist when you have made it clear you want nothing more to do with them - and I mean nothing, so there is no room for misunderstandings/slippery slope, you should seek legal advice and get them to stay away that way - they are harassing you

Don't speak to them on the phone at all. Delete ansaphone messages without listening to them if you need to, as they will be stressful. Take some of the thoughts from this thread and write them a letter. You've even got time to post it first class today. I don't know if you will ever be able to trust them not to bring this up with your children, even if you are there at the time, so can you maintain contact or should you cut it altogether? Up to you. If I'd been spoken to and treated in the way that you have, I'd be saying that I didn't want that to happen any more, and therefore didn't want to hear from them again.

I should have said, I would not let my kids go with these people even if they were family. whatever you feel you "owe" them in terms of a relationship with you/the Dc and a chance to play grandparents, you owe them nothing now - they have given up that right by their bullying and disrespectful of your wishes behaviour

also dont delete messages yet - i would keep a diary of everything they do and say, as evidence, like people have to with nuisance neighbours etc

I agree with keeping evidence of what they say to you.

But you definately should ditch them once and for all...even though you have had a long freindship the time has come to end it.
They do sound very weird to be honest

I read and understood your post and your motivation for wanting them in your life but they are odd to put it mildly and the dynamic of relationships (you-them / twins-them) is unhealthy.

You are a great mum for wanting wider relationships for your DC and there is nothing wrong in that especially as you have missed out on those relationships during your life together with the closeness and support they bring.

BUT these aren't the right people!

Having one mum who provides love and security is far far more important to a child than 'people' in their lives in a wider capacity. Don't sell yourself short. You are just great for your kids, on your own, your love is enough even if you don't get to do all the 'fun' things you think other people can bring.

And FWIW if my own mum behaved like you describe she wouldn't be getting near my DC.

I'm glad you're not a pushover - the time has come to make a stand.

You really need to assert yourself on behalf of your sons... or you are really letting them down... and children don't forget this.

They have communicated to you (which takes some bravery and they have probably felt this for some time) that they are unhappy about going there and that is all they need to do. They shouldn't have any more contact with them from now on and certainly shouldn't be dragged into a discussion/argument about going.

This doesn't sound an appropriate environment for them at all.... or a good relationship for you to have. Time to let them go I think...

Do not call them.

You have told them no, your children do not want to stay.

If they choose not to accept this, that is their problem.

You do not have to run after them or apologise.

If they start harassing you then you need to report them.

They actually sound unbalanced.

You should not be sending your children to stay with people if they don't want to go. You sound like you feel quite obligated to and intimidated by these people who sound like they are bullying you btw. Imagine how your children feel and they can't walk away.

Your loyalty should be towards your children, not this couple, however kind they may have been to you during difficult times in the past. You need to stand up for your dc and let this couple know that the children will not be coming to stay and that this is your decision as their mother. There should be no opportunity for discussions directly with your children.

What I find particularly weird is the big deal they make (or this guy makes) about your boys staying a couple of nights. Why would they be so angry about that, that you don't oblige them?

I feel your anxiety - but just do the right thing and protect your boys. No need to fear consequences, - and who is this arsehole guy anyway - who does he think he is talking to you like this?

....Maybe you need to tell him to fuck off.

Alcohol.
Drink driving.
Freedom to go to the shops that your sons have not been phased into.
Not changing a poor child out of vomitty clothing.
Turning eating into a massive source of anxiety with fines which a 9-y-o can't pay (great: combine anxieties about money AND food!)

They are unkind and irresponsible and won't even admit it, preferring to make it all your fault for being over-sensitive?

Perhaps get some backup from your DCs' school/GP.

Just because shes been like a surrogate mum doesnt mean shes done it for the right reasons , sometimes people do this because they like to be around people who are a little vulnerable , like you probably were when you were young , so they can bully and dominate .

I dont think you are helping yourself by describing them as almost family / stuck by you / closest freinds ect . Theyre not , freinds dont behave this way , and i wonder if your mother was around what she would have said about the way they treat you .

They are bullys . Take the labels off and see them for what they really are . While you describe them in a positive way you will feel indebted to them. It doesnt sound like theyve been particularly supportive of you , because if they were you wouldnt feel afraid of them.

Fwiw i have no family either , my ex in laws are loons and i keep them away from my dcs. Theres really only me , and several good freinds , while it would be loveley if they had a big loving family , id rather it be just us then have them grow up thinking these toxic people are normal .

"the friends became enraged and I ended up paying Ds's 'fine'"

So, do you feel that you owe them or are you scared of them?

Because if you daren´t stand up to them-imagine how your children feel?

I mean you paid money-they became enraged-fucking hell is all I can think of.

The thing is some of us tolerate people in our families (not to the point of danger though) as we are related. The great thing about friends is that we CHOOSE them. If it helps you, think about it as a friendship which had a lot to offer at one time point, but has now run its course. I suspect, as lots of people do here, that you being dependent and needing them has been the dynamic all along and you are finally waking up to the fact that although you may yourself have accepted intrusive behaviour and control, you are not going to let your children have the same experience. This makes you a great mum.

Stick to your guns. Even if they were related, if my child said repeatedly 'I don't want to stay overnight at granny and grandpas' on several occasions, and they both said it, I would listen. A loving grandparent would accept this restriction and see it as part of the ebb and flow of a relationship. The fact that they are angry says it all. You don't have to put up with their anger, either pick up the phone when you hear them and say 'please don't talk to me like that, I've made my decision which is that the boys won't be staying over again' and repeat it like a record, or just avoid the conversation altogether.

YANBU. Change your number, go exdirectory and keep these people away from your DC. One of these incidents would have been a dealbreaker for me, let alone all of them!

They are clearly strong characters and very good at manipulation. You do sound afraid of them. Keep your DC out of this argument, this isn't their fight, they're just children. The fact that these "friends" want to talk directly to 2 9 year olds about all this would freak me out tbh.

Why aren't YOU angry with THEM?

She's been dominated by them for a long enough time for her not to feel angry but to feel confused and upset and scared.

You've got to break the cycle, you know. If you do it now then you won't have to do it later when more damage has been done.

Gird your loins, think of your boys' wellbeing, stick your chin up. You don't want your dcs to be as scared and scarred as you are. You can do it.

If this was your mother people would have suggested a possibly abusive relationship, the same can happen with a therapist. For a therapist she has got far too involved with you, and your feelings of dependence are the reason that most therapists are advised/forbidden for such involvement.

You are not being unreasonable!

Thanks Mnetters. Whilst I haven't yet felt able to detach completely from these friends, your comments helped me last night when I spoke on the phone to the man.

Although I was nervous and he became angry and exaggerated what i was saying or deliberately misinterpreted it (eg, "So your DCs are saying I'm a drunkard, driving them round - well they're liars!"), I was able to get calmer and calmer and stick with my viewpoint and clarify what I was actually saying, rather than what he was saying I was saying.

I know I haven't heard the last of it and also his wife also wants to come back at me and have her say anmd wasn't free to do so last night. I know they'll both be furious and then terribly upset and trying to induce guilt.

But I do feel more confident to voice my opinion, calmly.

Yes, this woman has huge lifelong (almost) influence over me and was my psychotherapist for one year when I first got to know her but rapidly stepped/ jumped over boundaries. She hasn't been in that capacity for 26 yrs though - but I still feel 'in her thrall' and I also realise she's not all bad, which makes it even harder to express my misgivings to her about how she and her husband have bene with my DCS.

However, I do feel more able to do this now and was quite pleased with myself for managing her husband better than usual, last night.

YANBU at all - don't let your kids speak to them, and in fact I am absolutely wondering why you want to stay in contact with them and let them be involved with your family at all. You don't mention in what way they've been supportive to you, but surely it can't outweigh the way they have overstepped the mark with your kids, failed to care for them appropriately and consistently undermined you.

I'm surprised you have to ask the question at all - there's obviously some emotional ties there, but please for you, and your twins, sakes, stop seeing these people!!!!