A good job there aren't many men on MN

[Truckulent]

I think men would be shocked at the level of resentment leveled at them on MN. Almost a seething mass of contempt at times.

I'm a man, been on here for years. And I was surprised by it.

AIBU to think it's a good job there aren't many men on here, or would more men posting help men and women understand each other better?

yes there are other inequalities. The thing is, though, it's the privileged class (white men) who could do away with these inequalities if they so chose. The problem we have is they dont't want to

"You'll never change the dynamics of attraction between men and women" in the context of plastic surgery.

In fact the "desirable" body shape for a woman has changed markedly since the 80s, it was different again in the 50s, different again in the 20s. The standard of female beauty has changed again and again and again. I don't understand why people think that the "ideal" shape has always been the same. It hasn't, and to see differences you don't even have to look far back.

I am also a bit nonplussed at the claim that women have stacks of rights compared to men, whose rights are being eroded, purely on the basis that women get maternity leave. Seriously? And what about the fact that many feminists are strongly in favour of shared parental leave and more flexible working for everyone. How does this fit in with the conspiracy of evil feminists to ruin men's lives

Also the rich woman is still operating within a male dominated system - she will still have to put up with objectification and sexism, and she is still more likely to be rich because she married a male CEO than because she is a CEO herself.

When I say men have more privilege and status than women, I'm talking about men as a group and women as a group.

Individuals will always buck trends.

Nelson Mandela had power and status but that doesn't mean black populations the world over no longer suffer from white supremacy.

So what is attractive is a construct of patriarchy, and not instinct? Interesting.

And women wouldnt be competitive without patriarchy?

Well good luck with that. Human nature is a little harder to target than pay differentials.

And if she is a CEO she might be buffered from some elements of sexism but she will always be part of a group of people who are objectified.

Is this the wrong time to take my clothes off?

(They are great aren't they Sakura!)

Isn't categorising men and women in to 2 groups far too simplistic to be of any use. Saying that women are disadvantaged and men advantaged in this patriarchal society is far too cruder generalisation.

Jeez, this thread still going strong!?!?!?!

"And women wouldnt be competitive without patriarchy"

Nope. But they wouldn't be competing to land a rich husband or be the best pole dancer.

"So what is attractive is a construct of patriarchy, and not instinct? Interesting."

Well yes it is interesting. In some cultures and in european history the ideal female has been plump or even very fat. "Ideal" breast shape and size has varied wildly. The current "ideal" female body shape is one that owes most to the body shape seen in mainstream american porn - something that is made by men for men. This image has been propogated in society - magazine covers of "mens" magazines, certain pop videos and so on. Then it becomes the "fashion" and women feel immense pressure to conform, to the point of undergoing surgery. The major problem with the current "ideal" body shape is that it is a cartoon shape - the body shape and size (extremely slim and often not terribly curvy) would naturally go with quite small breasts (bar a very few women). So to get "the look" you need to diet down to a size 6 and then have some fake breasts stuck on the front.

Unless there is egalitarianism I would see this as ending up just the poor being oppressed.

It would just be poor men and poor women being oppressed albeit equally.

Wouldn't we have to end capitalism as well?

Yes truck absolutely we need a fundamental reordering of society. This one clearly isn't working. The power and money all held by a tiny elite, differences between rich and poor being so marked, wealthy western companies going and fucking over poorer less regulated countries for cash, it's revolting.

Did you know that people are still dying because of what happened at Bhopal all those years ago? Children are developing cancers from drinking contaminated water and of course there is no-one to treat them. The bastards still haven't cleaned it up. It makes me feel angry and helpless all at the same time.

So what would be the conditions of attraction under the matriarchy? (or whatever it is you plan to put in place of the patriarchy).

I fail to see any scenario where men arent going to like breasts and backsides, and thus women play to those traits to attract a mate.

Is it the very 'playing to those traits' that you dont like?

I didnt realise feminists had this level of behavioural re-engineering planned for men. It sounds like something out of a science fiction film.

I don't really understand your response.

Are you saying that what is considered attractive in women has not, in fact, changed over the years and across different societies? Haven't you seen pictures of women from the 80s, 50s, and 20s, and noticed that the body shapes are completely different?

Are you saying it is a good thing that the current "ideal" shape for women to aspire to is one that is unattainable for the vast vast majority except through surgery?

What are you talking about "behavioural re-engineering". If you mean for men to stop sexually assaulting women, objectifying them and generally abusing them then yes I think that is some "behavioural re-engineering" that I would like to see.

Is your reaction to be translated as the usual "feminists say they don't want men leering at them! and they don't want porny pictures of women all over the place! This means that they don't think men should ever look at or fancy women!"

It bollocks.

Im pretty sure that at any point in time, 'attractive' body shapes were never particularly attainable. Part of the attraction is the scarcity of supply.

My response wasnt an attack anyway - genuinely want to see how removal of the patriarchy is going to change the attraction dynamic between men and women.

What will men be attracted to under the matriarchy?

I'm sure I read somewhere about a society where the idea of men being particularly attracted to breasts is considered a bit weird. The men laughed at the idea of grown men 'suckling like babies'.

What we find attractive is hugely influenced by our culture.

Ccpccp - have you never heard of the concept 'trophy wife'?

Feminists aren't trying to stop men and women being attracted to each other. A little less pressure and normalisation of the idea that women should aspire to looking like Barbie, and that being ogled and groped, is acceptable would be good though.

There is a difference between not particularly attainable, and unattainable except through surgery.

Removal of patriarchy wouldn't change the attraction dynamic between people. It would mean that people (particularly women) weren't forever being held up against an unattainable standard.

Sure a certain amount of enhancement in both sexes in inevitable, the problem at the moment is the level of that enhancement for women, and the fact that women's bodies are used so often for display purposes. Women's bodies are shorthand for "sex", and that harms women, particularly young ones who are still finding their sexuality.

If hyper-sexualised images of women weren't displayed everywhere, maybe we could all relax a bit. Women and men could go back to fancying each other (assuming they're heterosexual!) without all these harmful messages about women's bodies and what they are for. If men weren't told that it is fine to openly gawp at pictures of women's breasts in the playground (see recent thread), or on the tube when sitting next to young children, or in a shop, or wherever, then maybe less of them would leer at real women and girls. It would certainly be less threatening for women without all these images around, and I think that people would be able to enjoy their sexualities more without this constant constraining into roles and images, with women being reminded what they are for everywhere they look.

Wouldn't it be nice if perfectly pretty, normal figured young women, felt confident and attractive. And ditto for perfectly good looking normal figured young men. And they could flirt with each other without any aggressive sexual undertones or pressure on one side to be passive.... All of that stuff. It would be lovely.

Ccpccp why are you talking about a matriarchy?

Are you unable to imagine a society where neither sex oppresses the other?

Lots of people like to pretend that wanting equality for women is actually a cunning plan to oppress men. Are you one of them?

Watching pop videos from the 80s is really good fun eye-opening as to how much things have changed in how men and women are presented. In the 80s the scanty clothes were there but men were very done-up too, and everything was much more light-hearted. Many pop videos these days are quite extreme in how women are portrayed.

Truckulent, now you're talking.

And speaking of occupational hazards, BeenBeta, here's a table of maternal mortality rates, by country Did you know that dying during childbirth or from complications of pregnancy or from puerperal fever was once very common in the west?

Being born female is something of an occupational hazard in a lot of places/for a lot of people TBH.

Men get killed at work - that's awful. Women get killed without even having to leave the house for it - and in some parts of the world they don't even have to leave the womb.

Maternal mortality rates are due to the poor standard of healthcare in the countries listed. I don't think its fair to say its the result of a patriarchal society many men as well as women die of perfectly preventable diseases in those countries as well.