A good job there aren't many men on MN

[Truckulent]

I think men would be shocked at the level of resentment leveled at them on MN. Almost a seething mass of contempt at times.

I'm a man, been on here for years. And I was surprised by it.

AIBU to think it's a good job there aren't many men on here, or would more men posting help men and women understand each other better?

TFP; you sound like someone who's reading from a script - there's no real passion or authenticity behind your posts - I'd give up if I were you.

And I did ask a mumsnet feminist rep to list me what rights men have that we haven't ( apart from the king and queen thingy ) .... Can you do that for me?

TY

TFP - don't bother engaging; simply not worth the effort. Whatever you say won't be good enough.

This really shouldn't be too hard - all I want is a list of rights that men have that we haven't.

Ok, DP so I wasn't ignoring you earlier but I think I'm going to now. You probably wouldn't be much interested in the answers of a 'bitter, man-hating ( or sex obsessed ) fairly depressed person' anyway!

If your posts weren't so silly then maybe I would post a list of the sort of things I'm concerned about as a feminist. If you can't exchange without petty insults you can't really expect serious answers back.

Larry you may identify with women more than you do with men, but the fact is you are male and benefit from male privilege in a male dominated society.

I can identify with black people all I like but that doesn't mean the world treats me as black or that I can know what it is like to be black in a society dominated by whites.

My business partner is black - we have lots of interesting discussions about all the concepts of privilege, obliviousness, status, etc. I think that is why I use race often as an analogy for feminist analysis.

She would probably lamp me if I told her that I identify more with blacks than whites and therefore can tell them they are wrong on race issues that I have never experienced!

I don't want to know what you're concerned about - we're all "concerned" about a lot of things - I just want some factual evidence about the rights men have that we haven't. That's all.

And I was giving a description of the feminists I've met - I haven't met them all so it wasn't scientific. And my description was in reply to how feminists describe MRA.

If you can't provide me with that info I'll draw my own conclusions ...

Beachcomber,

"She would probably lamp me if I told her that I identify more with blacks than whites and therefore can tell them they are wrong on race issues that I have never experienced!"

That is because, as a white person, you will never have a black son or daughter or a black parent (in the true genetic sense of the word). Neither will you share a genetic and cultural heritage with them.

Nearly all of us live with at least one person of the opposite sex and share our lives and possessions with them. The race/sex analogy is thus a poor one.

beachcomber - "But feminism isn't versus male rights, feminism challenges male privilege. There are plenty of feminists who work for changes in the workplace that will equalise things for both women and men.

I agree with what you said and I believe you feel that way and are being sincere. However, I also think daftpunk is asking a very valid question about what rights men have that women dont.

My feeling is that some elements of the feminist movement want to see mens rights diminished, want more rights given to women but not men and do not address or care about areas where men are disadvantaged compared to women. I see this tendency dislayed sometimes on MN and even in this thread as well as in RL.

That I think is where I and I think a lot of other men and women feel they dont agree with some feminists. Unfortunately it is this element of feminism that is often the most vocal and gets the most media attention. It is what gives feminism a bad name and leads to labels like 'man hater'. It is this element that actually does not like or care about men and sees men as the enemy.

It seeks to make women more equal by bringing men down. It is nihlistic and negative and it will not work.

I do not think from reading your posts you feel that way but some feminists do.

Thats a very good post BeenBeta.

Larry you recently came on a thread about childbirth in the feminist section of MN. There were lots of women discussing birth experiences and birth trauma.

Your posts on that thread made it glaringly obvious that you struggle to identify with women (in a meaningful way) at least as much as I struggle to identify with black people.

Analogies are rarely perfect (as you are probably aware by the shock some of yours provoked on the said childbirth thread and on the cognitive dissonance thread).

However - white supremacy and male dominance share fundamental themes such as domination of one socially constructed group over another group/economic and political disparity/two groups with different status/a power and privilege dynamic/one's status group being visible to others/justification for oppression due to 'natural differences'/exploitation of the oppressed group/shall I go on?

Politically and socially the women's rights movement and the civil rights movement have a lot in common and many people who are supporters or activists of one, are also of the other. Equal rights, freedom from oppression and liberty are the same concepts whether they are being applied to women, the black population or anybody else.

That is why race is not a poor analogy.

Demanding a list of disparity in 'rights' is a bit meaningless folks (and appears, yet again to be massively missing the point of what feminism is about, and an obtuse denial of how society actual functions).

Women have the right to equal pay but we know they don't actually get it all the time.

Women have the right to equal parliamentary representation but they don't actually have it.

Women have the right to work in powerful positions within the law system but we know that few of them do.

Women have the right not to be raped but we know that 1 in 4 women experience sexual assault.

Women have the right not to be trafficked in the sex industry but we know that hundreds of thousands of them are trafficked.

Women have the right not to be beaten and raped by their husbands in their own homes, but countless women are.

Women have the right to an equal domestic workload with their male partners but we know that countless women are exploited domestically by men.

In a similar manner, children have the right not to be beaten and sexually abused but, sadly, we know that laws are not enough to stop these things from actually happening.

I could go on all day but am off out again.

Please feel free anybody who wishes to add to the list. I suspect that many of the feminist posters aren't bothering with this thread anymore so I might start a thread on this later in the feminist section.

Beachcomber,

As ever, you imply that because I struggle to identify with a small clique of MN women, that I struggle to identify with all women. I run a lot of these discussions past real females and I tend to find much more mixed/favourable responses to my perspectives.

Men and women are not "socially" constructed groups. Can you name me any other socially constructed group where a member of the "oppressed" group chooses to pair up with a member of the "privileged" group and live together? Nope...thought not.

Beenbeta I don't really understand the point you are making. I might understand better if you could cite some examples of the male rights feminists are attacking. Are you sure they are not privileges rather than rights?

Some people find some feminists to be too extreme. Ok, fine. I have met civil rights activists that I find too extreme - doesn't mean I don't support civil rights though.

Most movements attract a fringe of extremists.

Not sure I understand you either Larry.

My black mate is married to, and has children with, a white man - is that the sort of thing you are talking about?

Beachcomber,

Yes, if you feel we still do not have racial equality. However that is relatively uncommon, certainly compared to men and women living together!

Really? - my black mate would disagree with you (as would her white husband). Her family who live in their country of origin would laugh at such privileged naivety.

Are we back to the theme of touching and naive faith in the male dominated (white dominated) legal system (which operates within a wider male dominated white dominated social,political and economical system) again?

BC; I'm going to come back and argue every single example you gave me of a male 'right'' over women.
( no time now ) so I'd really appreciate it if you stuck around >

Don't run off to the feminist section - I have it hidden so i never see what comes up - and the reason I've hidden it is because the people who post over there are extremely unapproachable and just aren't interested in anyone who doesn't agree with everything they say .

The civil rights movement was born out of the black African-American movement in the US.

These movements seek to end the oppression of one group by another.

Feminism seeks to end the oppression of one group by another.

I'm of the opinion that the similarity between the two is obvious and easy to understand.

DP..Can you explain the pay gap between men and women? (clue: it's not just penis models)

TSH: Black Power exists though, doesn't it?

DP they weren't examples of male rights over women.

They were examples of the limitations of laws alone in the road to equality.

I could do a similar list for black people if TSH and Larry like so that they can see how laws alone are not enough to achieve racial equality either.

Dang, that's another example of the similarity between racism and sexism!

Many feminists aren't bothering with this because it's too hard dealing with blinkered people.