A good job there aren't many men on MN

[Truckulent]

I think men would be shocked at the level of resentment leveled at them on MN. Almost a seething mass of contempt at times.

I'm a man, been on here for years. And I was surprised by it.

AIBU to think it's a good job there aren't many men on here, or would more men posting help men and women understand each other better?

TSH when you post like that it seems fairly clear that you don't actually understand what feminism is about. Lots of people don't.

As has been said before on this thread, feminism is concerned with how a male dominated system disadvantages women. Nobody is claiming that all men are only advantaged all the time and that all women are only disadvantaged all the time.

That patriarchy harms men too is all the more reason to challenge it, no?

Also on the question of 'equality for all';

That just strikes me as a really ineffective way to go about things. Again using the analogy of race - should black people try concentrate on the vast and unfocused liberation and equal rights for absolutely everybody in the world in order to sort out the problems caused by white supremacy?

Firstly why should they be asked to do such a thing? Should black people have to first make sure that those who have more privilege than them have everything sorted out before they have the right to concentrate on the black population? Of course they shouldn't.

Should black people ignore white supremacy and fight for the equal rights of everybody (including those who have more power and status than blacks) in the hope that the effects of such a fight might eventually filter down to those at the lower level of the status heap? They could be waiting quite some time.

Can you imagine a white person suggesting something so ridiculous to people involved in the civil rights movement? They would think you were a privileged arsehole with a pretty major sense of entitlement and total obliviousness to your privilege.

And in the meantime (whilst we wait for this blurry mirage of equality for all to become some sort of reality), what is to be done for those who suffer harm as a result of their low status and lack of power in society right now? Doing sweet FA would be the logical answer right?

Ok so whilst young black men are being shot by gangs and young black women are being gang raped we'll just sit by and do nothing because not everybody in the world is free from disadvantage yet?

Great idea.

And it works exactly the same for women in a male dominated world.

It isn't women's fault that a male dominated system is crap. They have the right to challenge it. If it bothers men too then they should join forces with feminists and use male status, power and privilege to sort the whole sorry mess out (plenty of men do this already).

BC;

Are there any matriarchal societies?
I couldn't name you one.

But feminism isn't versus male rights, feminism challenges male privilege. There are plenty of feminists who work for changes in the workplace that will equalise things for both women and men.

Feminism is concerned with how a male dominated system affects equality - it isn't women's fault that women have lower status in this system than men. It isn't women's fault that men are disadvantaged in some ways by such a system too. Women didn't set the system up.

You may think it is 'counterproductive' or 'disproportionate' for women to fight for equal pay, the right to vote, equal parliamentary representation, a reduction in sexual violence, the end of the sexual objectification and sale of women and children - but a lot of people don't.

I say that you don't seem to understand feminism because you don't seem to understand how male dominated society works and how it affects its citizens. If you don't understand this most basic (to feminism) thing, you cannot understand what feminism is about IMO.

Either that or you deny the existence of the patriarchy - which is of course your right. Just don't expect the rest of us to blindly follow you down that particular route of denial and non-action.

I would also say that if MRAs were being sincere, honest, humane, ethical and moral they would be jumping at the chance to join forces with feminists.

But they don't - many of them call us mad, ugly, ball breaking, bitches who need a good beating/fucking to sort us out.

Not all of them are this extreme of course, the less dangerous ones just misrepresent feminism, lie about its tenets and aims and quote feminists out of context in order to push the 'feminists think all man are rapists' stupidity.

What is it you're still fighting for BC, (genuine question)
If you make it clear other women could help you.

For anyone who doesn't believe me, here is a link to one of the more prominent MRA sites.

www.angryharry.com/index.html

This section is particularly illuminating (Even though it is incredibly badly written and is obviously trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator.)

I'm not ignoring you DP - I have to go out just now.

It's ok BC; it's just it would be easier for me to understand you if I had a list of things feminists are still fighting for ( it doesn't have to be you who gives it to me - you just happened to be here ).... (and I'm not talking about DV or pornography)....

What rights have men got that you haven't?

OMG the Angry Harry site is truly amazing

He thinks men having sex with children is fine, so long as they consent

He thinks it is fine to carry on having sex with people if they have 'given you the signs' and then say no

He thinks it is fine to slap your woman

It's quite nice to see all that written down. It really brings it home as to what the extreme version of arsehole man looks like. Excellent to know your enemy !

Nice to see one of my lecturers/ supervisors' work quoted by him The research he does is on IQ and he found a 4 point difference between men and women - and he knows shitheads like this will use his work and politicise it, but genuinely that is not his motive.

Beachcomber, thanks for the explanation of MRA. Makes sense now.

Mathanxiety,

"Larry, I think I may have said this on another thread, apologies for boring anyone who has read this before, but the idea of communal guilt for crimes against humanity has been a very effective teaching tool in postwar Germany. Why not adopt the attitude in the case of rape, which is by legal definition the penetration by a penis (presumably attached to a man) of another human without the consent of the person being penetrated. (loose definition here wrt consent obv.)"

You have indeed made the above point. However, it does not make it any more valid. I do not feel myself to belong to a group called "men". I have a lot more in common genetically with any female relative than I do with half the human race with whom I share a single common chromosome. So, unless you want to broaden the group to all of humanity, including females, I do not accept your idea of it being a useful tool in the case of rape to expect men to take communal responsibility.

En passant, so many feminists above have asserted that feminists never claim that men should take communal responsibility for rape and asked me to give just one example. Well, I am citing your post as just one of numerous examples I could find if I had the time to dig around.

Arguing feminism with the likes of DP, TSH, scottishmummy is like swimming through treacle. It's too hard, requires too much effort and is really not worth it. Some women would rather just accept 'their place' than admit that men are afforded more privilege. I have no idea why these women don't want equal rights for women, it's really odd. I suspect selfishness is at the heart of this.

DP....can you give us all a long list of careers/jobs where women are doing better than men? Nothing under £60k please.

This rubbish about not considering men/women as separate groups really annoys me, statistics say we're different, status says we're different, past laws say we're different (the point of that is that many men and women living today have lived in a country where legally they had different rights)....it doesn't matter what the egocentric individual considers themselves, it what everyone else considers them.....BANGS HEAD ON DESK.

Let's put it this way, I consider myself to be intelligent, I consider myself more clever than Stephen Hawkins....noone else does though.

AND A man has the right to make his wife a Queen, A woman cannot make her husband a King....as his status is higher,

So DP there's your law.