A good job there aren't many men on MN

[Truckulent]

I think men would be shocked at the level of resentment leveled at them on MN. Almost a seething mass of contempt at times.

I'm a man, been on here for years. And I was surprised by it.

AIBU to think it's a good job there aren't many men on here, or would more men posting help men and women understand each other better?

The longer I've been here, the more I agree with Xenia in some things.

TSH - was under the impression we were having a discussion on this thread? Not sure what you mean by 'stoking the fire' unless that's some kind of euphemism for 'adding to the debate'? Admittedly I was a little slow in posting my last post because I was making sure I had read all of LTW's posts before I posted again because I was getting very confused about what she'd alluded to her job being and then backtracked on.

Must admit to finding you leaping to the wrong conclusion about CRP's post quite amusing - did you assume just because he was a man he would agree with you? Just as NiceGuy2 assumed LTW held the views she did because he thought LTW was a man! The only times I've experienced similar is when a white person has made some kind of racist joke or insinuation to me on the assumption I will agree because I'm white too...pretty repulsive but I guess it at least gives me the chance to say actually don't assume I share your vile views just because I am the same colour/race/gender. Takes a particular form of bigotry combined with a narrowness of perception to makes those kind of assumptions but am always grateful when people like that give me an early warning of their views so I can avoid/refute as appropriate.

I think CRP's post for me would be the position I would hope most men would hold about MN - justified irritation with the sweeping generalisations about men (as equally as annoying as sweeping generalisations about women) and yet a sense of awareness and appreciation as to why that might be.

I've learnt a lot on this thread - Snorbs and TSH have highlighted that DV against men is worryingly high and largely neglected (although yet to see any kind of study that points to men being the majority of victims but have a few more links to read so maybe that is in there somewhere?) - MayorQuimby highlighted that Irish law still permits the Morgan defence () and that there are senior police officers out there who indirectly inform policy (maybe about parking, maybe about rape) who are forming views for the rest of the UK police authorities with, at the very least, an extremely cavalier attitude to discerning why rape investigations and prosecutions have such difficulties. V interesting post from Tabouleh correcting the out of context quote made on Baroness Scotland's comments on the reporting of the 6% conviction rape.

TSH and DP - do you mind if I ask what your views are that you agree on? Is your argument that the pendulum has swung too far and men are now being discriminated against? Or that women are acting out of place? Or that 'feminism' does more harm than good (to borrow LTW's phrase about Dittany)? Would you mind explaining?

this notion of the enlightened woman who knows other women are opressed (but the other women doesn't know they are oppressed) is grandiose and deluded.smacks of i is so clever you is all so fick (and oppressed).so rise up and do as told and you wont be oppressed any more

"you are suggesting we all share a homogeneous experience"

I'm not suggesting anything of the sort - it is patently ridiculous to claim that all women experience life in exactly the same way.

I would suggest that a female prostitute with a history of sexual abuse and or rape, who has been jailed for soliciting, has a hugely different experience than I, of the patriarchal system, for example.

I would also suggest that a women being stoned in Iran for 'adultery' because she has been raped is living a different experience too.

Remarkable post Xenia.

"Hopefully we are now working towards a situation where we might have more than 50% of women in position of power not 11% or whatever low figure we have but it behoves us all, male and female, to seek to aid that happening and every woman who goes part time or ends up doing more than a man at home (more fool those women) is hindering that process."

Are you suggesting that the women are making bad choices? Wrong choices? My wife chose to stay at home to bring up DD and relinquished a Headship at the school she teaches at. Now DD is 17m she now only works one day a week. Her agenda in this was that she wanted to be at home to bring up her daughter. We talked about it at length and we both decided that this was the best option for everybody concerned. It wasn't a financial decision in any way (we would have been better off with her taking the headship), it was just right for us as a family.

She does more than me at home as well! Mainly because she spends more time there. I do more than my fair share when I'm in the house. I'll be sure to let her know that she is setting back the progress towards women taking up positions of authority in this country and ensure that she feels suitably ashamed.

Thread going strong I see.

Deepheat- why didn't you go part time as well? Not having a dig just interested.

Yes TSH - for one so liberal and "right on" TFP is always quick to label people and put them in little boxes - very odd. I never think of age on here - If I'm talking to someone aged 20 or 70 - doesn't matter to me - just another poster with an opinion.

TFP - I'm not 100% sure you're who I think you are - but there was a poster on here who was starting to post some very right-wing opinions - I noticed her because I had to look twice to see if I'd posted them - ( in my sleep or something ) ..But then there was a remarkable change of style - she'd gone from sounding like Ian Duncan-Smith to Laurie Penny almost overnight ....I had to laugh.

some very sweeping generalisations made

"Individual women may not regard themselves as oppressed, but it is ridiculous to claim that we do not live in a male dominated society.

"Thereby, women, as a group, are oppressed"

and apparently we dont have the reflective abilities to acknowledge it either.good job someone else here to tell women what their experience actually is

OK, whatever scottishmummy. You appear to be claiming that we don't live in a male dominated society because it annoys you that some women are more political than others, or something.

So you're ok with the fact that say, culture education and country lived in affect women's experiences and perceptions when it comes to them not being oppressed, but apparently not when it comes to their being oppressed.

Sorry, that is too much doublethink for me to get my head round.

'Are you suggesting that the women are making bad choices?'

Stick around here. Read the Relationships section often. You'll see how often this turns out to be a very poor decision indeed.

Not always, of course, but often enough.

Hell, look at the section today - Coping with a selfish partner; AIBU - to expect more; ad infinitum.

Money is power. Always has been, always will be.

Sacrificing your means of earning it entirely and becoming financially dependent on someone else, no matter what your gender, is a risk.

dont paraphrase me erroneously because i dont happen to agree with you

and whatever,seems to be an appropriately pitched response for you

I agree very strongly with scottishmummy here.

In the MN feminism section I often feel I am reading posts by lots of spoiled little girls who say women are "oppressed" when actually they mean that women aren't getting exactly what they want all the time.

I'm not sure what we are not agreeing on really.

For me the first level would be; do we live in a male dominated society or not?

Either we do or we don't.

You haven't given a clear opinion on that bit I don't think yet.

Bonsoir do you really think being angry about things like rape, economic dependence, wife burning and stoning, is 'being a spoilt little girl'?

Honestly, do you?

Lol at Bonsoir, that's so so true.

Well I certainly don't think anyone ought to be angry about "economic dependence". All but the very richest are economically dependent upon others - it is a complete illusion to think that adult humans are going to live other than by their own hard work.

Rape, wife burning and stoning are crimes in our society: we are not oppressed by them, rather sometimes victims of them.

Am not at all angry about people deciding to become financially dependent on their partner or spouse so they can look after a child. That is entirely his/her business, but it is a trade off, when you chose to leave the workplace to do so, and can mean economically setting oneself back.

It can lead to issues for other women when women, and it's usually women, do this, as some employers will be more reluctant to hire women of childbearing age at all.

Yeah, women being sold for sex, beat up, blamed for their own rapes, murdered, used for porn, paid less than men, objectified, having hardly any political power and very little economic power and autonomy is fucking hilarious isn't it?

Agree Bonsoir:

Feminists are just frustrated women who never really "made it" in life - so they blame men.

Oh lordy are we back to the touching and naive faith in the male dominated legal system to protect women from crimes perpetuated by men in male dominated society again?

Too depressing. I think I leave the all right jackers to it.

so do you overlook the majority of law grads are female,and the contribution of female solicitors,and advocates

Scottishmummy - solicitors, barristers and law graduates don't make law though do they or is there something I missed during Bar School? You'd agree that the legislature and therefore government makes the law? And the judiciary can develop the law in deciding cases by analogy and according to precedent but not by enacting legislation?

So I wonder how many women judges there are and women in Parliament in ratio to men? Very low - but as you point out with the increasing influx of women to the lower ranks of the legal professions it is to be hoped more women make it to the higher judicial ranks and get the opportunity to influence law and the same with women entering Parliament.

i am v familiar with pqe training and career routes but you have purposefully misconstued what i said which is that currently in law and medicine the majroity of undergrads are female.previously male dominated career are now being chosen by females

Ah so that's it DP! Such psychological insight you have and from such a distance and on such little information. I guess that is what my problem must be...three degrees (qualifications, not the group) a six figure salary (crude of me to mention it I know but since I don't know whether your definition of 'made it' includes financial remuneration I do), a position on several Boards, a lovely DP and DS and a very close and loving extended family - and those are the reasons why I am a feminist - I haven't 'made it'? What should I have done to 'make it' and therefore validate my sense of injustice about the patriarchal society we live in? Why, if I have such a (self-professed and apologies for sounding smug) lovely life, satisfying career etc do I feel frustrated that it is legal to stone a woman to death for being raped (your point about it being a crime seems to miss the point that in Iran being raped is the crime for which the woman is being punished) or to kill one's own daughter for 'honour' reasons or dump a baby girl to freeze to death on a mountainside because she was not born a son? Why does all this make me desperately sad and want to try and ensure that those practices don't continue and that genuine gender equality can be achieved where hopefully in the future my son can apply to work part-time because he wants to spend time with his children. It's because I haven't 'made it'. I see.

Would have been very interested to debate your views with you but now see that you're actually not capable of that.

Does it ever occur to any of the posters who think feminism is for "spoilt little girls" or "frustrated women" that a) they owe their jobs, vote, bank accounts and right not to be imprisoned by their husbands to such "spoilt little girls" and b) not all, or even most, feminists are mainly concerned with sexism etc as it affects them personally. I see this over and over again, the assumptions about "oh you middle class feminists bleating on about how oppressed you are". Well - yeah some feminists on here and IRL are middle class, a lot aren't. Some feminists on here and IRL are experiencing the effects of oppression seriously in their daily lives - the hundreds and hundreds on here who were raped and had the police or teachers or parents laugh it off or blame them for it for instance. Those who have been sacked for getting pregnant. Those who are experiencing or have experienced DV and not got the support they need etc etc.

BUT also IME most feminists regard the oppression of women worldwide as somewhat of our concern also. Whenever we bring this up on here some little darling always springs in with "oh yeah well, in Afghanistan maybe bad things are happening, but that's no reason for British women to be feminists". Well for me it is unacceptable that women and girls are being treated unequally, hurt, aborted, killed at birth, forced into prostitution, harrassed at work, beaten, jailed or killed for being female. And I really don't give a flyer whether this is happening in Runcorn or Buenos Aires. Feminism is for women everywhere.