A good job there aren't many men on MN

[Truckulent]

I think men would be shocked at the level of resentment leveled at them on MN. Almost a seething mass of contempt at times.

I'm a man, been on here for years. And I was surprised by it.

AIBU to think it's a good job there aren't many men on here, or would more men posting help men and women understand each other better?

No those things are not hilarious they are serious criminal issues and most sensible people, both men and women, take them very seriously, it's just that so much of the feminist section seems to be so self-indulgent and 'poor little me' naval gazing. Sorry.

Of course BDJ if you aren't "successful" in life then you are a pathetic failure who becomes a feminist to have a good whinge. If you are successful, then you are a smug middle-class patronising do-gooder who should be counting her blessings.

I wonder who, exactly, is qualified to talk about feminism without falling into one of these well-signposted traps? Oh - I remember, nobody. We should all just STFU and go lalala when we hear about our friends and neighbours being laughed at by the police when they report their assaults, or when we hear of another girl being murdered by her father or brother for having the temerity to have a boyfriend.

You're creating straw arguments elephants, one of the things that feminists seem to get so angry about, no one has said those things and you know it.

Can I ask dp to read up on Baroness Helena Kennedy? Has she made it?

The glass ceiling does exist. Women are persecuted throughout the globe for simply being women, how can you ignore it?

lemonmuffin - like other areas of MN there are a lot of threads in the feminism section, some for people to reflect on their own feelings/experiences or talk over theoretical issues (much like the Relationships section, or Politics or Philosophy), and others that are more light-hearted, others that are about organising activism, others about thing in the news etc. I know you're just on a wind up but in case people are reading this and have never been to that section, I thought I should put the record straight.

lemonmuffin Tue 23-Nov-10 10:08:52
No those things are not hilarious they are serious criminal issues and most sensible people, both men and women, take them very seriously, it's just that so much of the feminist section seems to be so self-indulgent and 'poor little me' naval gazing. Sorry.

If you could identify one past with 'poor me' sentiments I would be surprised.

Wow.

OP - YANBU. I think men get short thrift on MN, and that is to be expected really, but there are certain posters who go above and beyond the call of duty in this negative portrayal.

I cant decide if this is just passionate belief in what they are saying, or controlling bullying behaviour to stomp on any views that dont 100% reinforce their own.

Reading the treatment of posters in last few pages of this thread, I'd say it was the latter.

Scottishmummy - I didn't misconstrue your point - I just didn't understand the relevance of a previously male dominated career now having a majority of females entering it as to whether the that career is still male dominated. If your point is that it soon won't be, I agree, it is to be hoped that the large numbers of women entering the profession the make it to the top. However, just because majority of people training to be lawyers in very recent years are women does not magically and retrospectively change the fact that the law has historically and to to date remains a male dominated career, and particularly in the upper ranks.

ccpccp - can you distinguish between "stomping" and, say disagreeing or arguing? Is this not a discussion board any more then?

Well exactly. Lets just STFU 'cos life is fair and perfect and you have only yourself to blame if you and other women haven't 'made it'.

These women who whinge about gendered violence the world over are right selfish cows aren't they?

I think they should be silenced because my life is fab and they are just being bloody selfish in pointing out that not everybody is as wonderful as me fortunate.

I honestly think that women who have to sneer at feminism are more likely to be the 'I'm alright jack' selfish women that leave us a fractured group.

Why can't equality for women be something that we all want to work toward? The assumption that we have it is ludicrous and grossly wrong.

you dont grasp relevance of women entering previous male professions?well hopefully the contribution and participation of women will bring vigour and a range of pov.all professions should seek to widen opportunity of access.as medicine and law have been trying to do

still much work to be done,but the fact the careers which were previously considered male domain are opening up a bit

if you feel fractured dont blame others,time for self reflection.not an outward attack upon others

The widest pay gaps by occupation are seen in the Skilled Trades where the gap ranges from 22.7 per cent to 31.2 per cent.

TFP - what do you mean by 'one past?' If you mean one poster i could name at least two immediately who fit that bill, but i'm not going to as well you know.

Elephants - i'm not on a wind up any more that you are, these are my genuine opinions and i happen to think they're just as valid as yours i'm afraid.

The use of words like 'stomp' and 'bullying' to describe feminism is just a tad ironic don't you think?

That's great lemonmuffin - in that case I'm glad I responded to you in a polite manner :)

Arf at "if you feel fractured dont blame others,time for self reflection.not an outward attack upon others". She said she felt that women as a group were fractured, clearly meaning that women don't all join together to fight the various oppressions that women face around the world. Trying to solve that problem in her Inner Self is hardly likely to prove fruitful

SM - let's not be deliberately obtuse here. I think you do take my point that until women entering male dominated careers reach the upper ranks, not a lot of change for the better will occur. Words on a screen and all that so try not to get too wound up about it .

I hope that more women entering the legal profession will bring more than vigour and a range of points of view. I hope that it might bring about changes in the law which put women at a disadvantage to men. But for that to happen women have to make it to the judiciary and perhaps more importantly into Parliament.

TSH - yes I know that, I responded to that comment, clearly speaking about feminists on here and IRL. The feminists on here aren't just products of the internet's imagination - we exist and do stuff in real life too. Feminist posters/section on MN is a subsection of "the feminist movement in its entirety".

Xenia - you have raised a very topical point that I ma surprised had not been raised earlier on the thread.

"Hopefully we are now working towards a situation where we might have more than 50% of women in position of power.."

This issue has been in a lot of the financial news lately in particular about raising the number of women on company boards to 50% and the question of wether there shoudl be some kind of mandatory quota imposed by law to ensure women are given equal numbers of board positions.

I am absolutley sure we do need quotas. Nothing will change oterwise but I see big business is suggesting ony a voluntary target of 30%. This is not good enough any more.

BelleDeJure you didnt pose your earlier questions to me but I hope you will not mind me responding to a few:

"Is your argument that the pendulum has swung too far and men are now being discriminated against?"

No. Society is stil dominated by men in too many areas and women are not being treated equally or fairly as a result. It is not my experience as a man in the generality of life to be discriminated against but in a few areas yes it is. In for example the way men are not allowed to share in maternity leave. In the way men are not typically given custody or equal access to children in divorce cases. In the way men typically are more likely to die from indutrial injuries and (ie the glass cellar effect).

"Or that women are acting out of place?

No women are not acting out of place to demand equality at work, fair treatment, protection from violence, equal access to resources, having their voices and opinions listened to. The list goes on and on of the things that clearly need to change.

Or that 'feminism' does more harm than good".

No I do not think feminsm does more harm than good but I think the way radical elements of feminism presents their case is damaging the effectiveness of the message and the most important thing is to get the message across. I think radical feminism turns a lot of women off like my DW (and many women on MN it seems) even though she is sick to death of the way women are being treated by society and that men hold so much of the power and nothing ever changes.

If radical feminism turns off people (men and women) who otherwise unquestioningly support its basic aims then I suggest it needs to look at how it puts its message across. In short, it needs to get smart - not just angry.

What youre doing now ElephantsAndMiasmas is debate.

Pages 14-18. Not really debate, more like a group kicking of a seemingly sensible poster whos initial comment on DV irked one or two of the other posters. The rest seems to be a cynical attempt to misrepresent her position and paint her as some kind of rape apologist.

It is unreasonable to expect that a space called 'Mumsnet' doesn't have more men on it?

I would say it's entirely reasonable to allow a space for women to discuss their thoughts and opinions and worries with other women in a 'safe' space. Isn't there a 'Dadsnet' where men can discuss things?

As for the feminist discussion, I am a feminist. I had my eyes opened by an abusive relationship that then led me to see how much male entitlement there is in the world still. Obviously that's not true of all men - feminists are not "man haters"; we hate misogynists and sexists, a big difference.

I have to say that the feminists that I have come across in the last few years have been the kindest, most reasonable, sensible, supportive people I have come across in my life, and I include men and women in that category.

It is really sad that so many women want to distance themselves from a movement which is striving to put women on an equal footing with men.

Only yesterday, I attended a domestic abuse workshop put on by my local NHS. It specifically tackled the issue of abuse directed at women (although there was an acknowledgement that men can be victims too albeit not on such a large scale). It was pretty harrowing stuff - 1 in 4 women in this country will be abused at some point in her life, and it's estimated that that costs my local NHS organisation over £7m a year, and it's a relatively small primary care trust - in terms of trips to A&E, prescriptions and mental health support. That's money spent on abuse that is entirely preventable.

Where does that come from? I have my own theories on this and unfortunately we didn't get a chance to explore this in the seminar. The amount of incidents isn't changing but the support for victims is. And everyone at that seminar yesterday would have described themselves as a feminist because it is feminists who push for rape crisis centres, who want to educate children about healthy relationships, who push local councils to offer gender equality training for schools.

I'm proud to be part of all this work and I'm grateful to the feminists who went before me.

And, to get back to the original point, I think it is unreasonable for men to expect to invade a female space. I've been quite shocked at some of the things I've seen women write about the way they're treated and how they've normalised bad behaviour (as I did). I've also seen a lot of women write about their good relationships. It's good for women to have this space.

I was completely warmed by a group of young women, all in childcare, asking me if I belong to a feminist group and how they can get involved. Seems to me the movement may be gathering momentum by young women, women that haven't been duped into thinking the battle is already won.

Lemon, I think you're talking rubbish about 'poor me' on the feminist board.

Feminism and natural sex differences
Debriefing: a wedding
AIBU to think that the emphasis on "gender neutral" smacks of desperation
Would you fume at this FB update?
Victims of Violence 3
probably been done to death but tits on page 3 is weird
So... anyone know about cave people and how their societies were organised?
menstruation taboo... strong as ever?
Visual erotica for women
Object to Suit Supply which offers pornography along with its suits
November Book Club
Which feminist book shall I buy for my 17 year old cousin?
Am I right to be really really annoyed about this..
Ann Widdecombe
Stacey in the jungle
Anyone else just want to.

There's the most active threads from the Feminist section, can you please show us all the 'poor me' thread?

BDJ;

I'm more than capable of having a debate with you about feminism or any other subject for that matter, however, my posting style has always been quick - to the point & often anecdotal ( not always a good thing I appreciate that - but I'm often time restricted )
Of course there will be exceptions in any group - and reading your post you clearly have "made it" ... but various studies confirm that women are unhappier now than they were in our mothers generation. what are we ultimately all searching for in life? happiness and peace. you may well have a good job and a lovely family - but that doesn't necessarily mean you're happy. Your job could be so demanding ( and I'm sure it is on that salary) that you find it hard to relax at weekends. On the surface you may have it all - but underneath you could be depressed. A high % of young women now suffer from ' Anhedonia' - they have lost the ability to experience any form of pleasure. Why is that? It's because of all the pressure feminists put on them. They try and "have it all " but realise it's an impossible task - so they become numb. Feminists sold women a lie - no one can have it all - even men. You are responsible for screwing up the minds of women.... ( and when I said "made it" I wasn't referring to having a highly paid job - I was referring to happiness and contentment - it's funny you mentioned your job as an indicator of how successful you are)