A good job there aren't many men on MN

[Truckulent]

I think men would be shocked at the level of resentment leveled at them on MN. Almost a seething mass of contempt at times.

I'm a man, been on here for years. And I was surprised by it.

AIBU to think it's a good job there aren't many men on here, or would more men posting help men and women understand each other better?

I see it more as changing societies attitudes/mindset than changing the law.

As has been said on this thread the law on rape has been changed but society's attitude is still that consent is presumed and women still have to prove that they didn't.

Oh somebody said "bleat"- uh oh...

Truck remember though that there are thousands and thousands of people posting on here, and so it can all get a bit intense. The people who are in loving/happy/no problems/no problems to speak of relationships don't post about them. A person is only likely to start a thread about something which seems quite small eg loading the dishwasher if they are absolutely at the end of their tether, for whatever reason, and the women responding understand that.

Plus, don't try to tell me that men don't roll their eyes at "things women do". It was mainstream comedy staple a few decades ago, and it still happens all the time. Women can't drive, women are too emotional, women go bonkers when premenstrual, all women are interested in is chocolate, women always ignore their OHs when they have a baby, women are after money blah blah there are a million negative messages about women and they are in our faces all the time, so much so that people hardly even notice they're there.

yes the "not that bad" thing is an interesting one.

I know that most of my friends think I'm an absolute extremist nutter for exprssing the view that for me, the division of domestic labour is a dealbreaker. But it's not the plate left on the table or the socks left on the bedroom floor (a place that should speak of calm, peace, rest, passion joy and fun, not bloody laundry btw) that's the issue.

It's what it says about his attitude to me - that sense of entitlement that children have (which is forgivable) and many men in our culture have (which is unforgivable AFAIC) that someone else but them is responsible for wiping up their shit. And it speaks volumes about their respect for me, that they think that just because I have a vagina, that should be me.

And that's why for me, it really is "that bad". Adn that is also why survey after survey reveals that men who do more domestic labour in their homes, get more sex. Well I wonder why that might be.

StayFrosty Mon 22-Nov-10 14:04:20
I was posting on a thread yesterday about aposter's dh who was pesteringher for sex. Anothermposter posted this:

"some men have no notion of the concept of listening and just carry on regardless because they are wired only to do what they want. It isn't an excuse but some of them just don't get acting decent until they've been taught."

I think this is fairly man hating.

I'm just skimming and this jumped out at me....and my first thought was 'isn't this utter shit?'. Some people do need to be taught how to be decent, in fact most people who aren't decent probably can't be taught, decency is nurtured in childhood and some are lucky and are born with a decent gene. But to say this is man hating is rubbish. Most men need to be taught how to be good lovers, good fathers, good husbands....

When I first arrived at MN I suppose I saw sometimes it was my job to defend men on here. And I was a bit astounded by some of the posts.

But gradually my attitude has changed and I think what a dick about some of the men described.

It helps running my own house and having a lot to do with my children,and being told at work 'well we can't pay you the same as you can't be flexible with your hours' so maybe I have more of an insight now.

So to answer about niceguy maybe he's on a journey of discovery on here as well but is still in the defending men mode.

How diplomatic was that?

Truckulent Mon 22-Nov-10 19:32:16
"I don't think I'm insensitive, I've always had female friends and I think if I was insensitive I'd get called on it, or they wouldn't be friends with me. "

To be fair Truck many women have a lower standard of sensitive behaviours expected from men, but unlike your female counterpart it's apparently something we all accept as part of being male. Unwittingly women would like particular characteristics but we are (I use we loosely) in constant acceptance of a much lower standard.

I do think that a lot of people on here go majorly overboard. My DH sometimes forgets to put stuff in the dishwasher or leaves his dirty laundry on the floor instead of in the basket. Does it annoy me yes but is he doing it to reinforce some form of patriarchy in the raltionship no.

Well I can't quite decide if it is touching to see such naive faith in the male dominated law system to sort out the lot of women in a male dominated society, or, if it is disingenuous.

Well, alright, I can - it's disingenuous.

And as for the 'moan about men threads' it's more common for women to share but men are far more dismissive of their spouses, a male friend (middle class, very successful, well educated) called his wife the 'fun police' when a reunion was suggested with a couple of friends across the pond.

We can change the structure of society, so that it is designed to meet the needs of both halves of the human race, not just one half.>Do we think that inside Niceguy is a seething mass of contempt for women?>It's what it says about his attitude to me - that sense of entitlement that children have (which is forgivable) and many men in our culture have (which is unforgivable AFAIC) that someone else but them is responsible for wiping up their shit. And it speaks volumes about their respect for me, that they think that just because I have a vagina, that should be me.

I'm not sure what you're really saying Niceguy2 - could you please clarify?

I would think that law is not correct or incorrect - it is either in force or repealed but those terms only speak of its status - my point being that it is perfectly possible to have an immoral law that has been validly made and enacted. That's because law in a democracy is generally made by governments voted in by the eligible voting public. Which until 1928 women were not eligible to vote under the same terms as men in the UK. We've not even been equal in voting rights for 100 years yet.

So seeing as laws have been being made (in the UK) spanning back to ecclesiastical law (all men there) in the 800s/900s and the adoption of the roman juris system (all men in charge there too) for the UK - how many of those laws do you reckon were formed by on or behalf or benefited women in any way? And how many do you reckon were made on or behalf or to benefit men?

So your point about just because you have a law making theft illegal doesn't stop people thieving is....? Surely that's as obvious as the day is long - enforcement is what counts. And civil enforcement (which 95% discrimination law falls under - not criminal) means it is dependent on individuals making claims in certain areas where discrimination laws apply such as employment and provision of goods and services. So say for example you said all women are brainless zombies I don't have a legal claim against you for that. I would have to wait until I applied for a job with you and you turned me down, writing on the app form 'as dumb as a zombie like all women' but even then I wouldn't get to see that note you made on my CV and unless you were foolish enough to say something in the interview that hinted you thought this way, it would be difficult for me to instigate a claim, and in any event, virtually impossible to prove it.

I'm a lawyer and even I know the law is an ass - necessary, sometimes effective, but it always always reflects society's views and very rarely shapes them. So if the only people until 82 years ago in the UK voting the laws in were men, then you can see why it was impossible to rape your wife until a mere 19 years ago and why Morgan's defence was even a defence.

Do you have any daughters Niceguy2? Or sisters even?

"I don't think I'm insensitive, I've always had female friends and I think if I was insensitive I'd get called on it, or they wouldn't be friends with me"

Don't you believe it.

I have no idea what you're like, I assume charming and marvellous in the absence of evidence to the contrary. But women *don't call their male friends on insensitivity etc., just because we're so used to it. Male privilege is so deeply entrenched, that it is a really rare male who actually "gets it" and would actually be aware that he's luxuriating in it. And seeing as how we're going to be called man-haters if we do call men on insensitivity or male privilege or whatever, we usually don't bother.

zombies? Have I missed something? Are you a necrophiliac Niceguy2?

It was indeed very diplomatic, Truckulent. (Why though?)

I personally believe he's on a journey of discovery up his own ass.

I think we could change society one Niceguy at a time.

Not sure what you think is so outrageous about my post Niceguy?

Ah I see Beachcomber has already said what I said in 500 words in about 10...precisely.

Turn the OP around.

Men who wander into MN may be shocked by some of the content. Yes I can see that.

A woman wandering onto a website which was 99% men and looking at discussions about women - I hate to say it but I dread to think what I'd find. I wouldn't even do it!

So what does that say?

Actually that's a very good point ISNT

The mysogyny out there is quite frightening

Ah, I've got it - Niceguy2 is a patriarchy denier.

Truck, you might be interested in this blog.

It is written by a man who has done a pretty good job of becoming aware of his male privilege. He speaks much sense and it is interesting to have a male perspective on male/female inequality.

This post is good on male privilege;

nocookiesforme.blogspot.com/2007/10/this-post-really-is-about-menz.html

(There's even one in there on zombies for Niceguy2!)

I do fabulous links!! How about the false rape society, page three fan pages, Jordan? There three off the top of my head of sites with mainly men posting......

Your post was much more thorough and convincing though BelledeJure.

ooh i'm going to wander onto Men's Health forum - it used to fill me with horror. Wonder whether it's still as bad - it was generally a lot of posts about how can I persuade my girlfriend to have a threesome or try anal sex...and repeat ad nauseam. That's all they seemed to talk about circa 2002.

I must admit the few 99% male forums i've been on have been pretty horrendous and virtually unintelligble. Thank god text speak and the dreaded lol and Hun are frowned upon here.

About niceguy I suppose I was trying not to be insensitive and I don't like being horrible to anyone really.

In order to change a situation, there needs to be:

Awareness
Acceptance
Action

Action without full awareness and deep acceptance of a situation tends to be unfocussed and momentum easily peters out. I see many posts on MN as being about fostering awareness, whether by disseminating information or by questioning and exploring thoughts and opinions. So, in terms of a more equal society, "bleating" on MN is tremendously helpful.

Anyone who disagrees with any other poster's opinion is perfectly at liberty to question and disagree - MN is one of the least moderated sites I have ever come across. But, I would urge those who disagree to at least engage with the subject matter. Stonewalling and dismissal without any counter-argument doesn't get anyone very far.

And really, as I said earlier, MN is a warren of fluffy bunnies compared to many forums out there, even those that have heavy moderation. I don't know why that is, but it fascinates me.