A good job there aren't many men on MN

[Truckulent]

I think men would be shocked at the level of resentment leveled at them on MN. Almost a seething mass of contempt at times.

I'm a man, been on here for years. And I was surprised by it.

AIBU to think it's a good job there aren't many men on here, or would more men posting help men and women understand each other better?

punternet

No female equivalent of that AFAIK.

TSH there is a subset of total PITA tidy-fanatic type men though who I avoid like the plague

ISNT -- my ex was that neat freak PITA.

One friend of mine has a DH who runs his fingers along the skirting board when he gets home.....

I am very untidy.,

I'd have to disagree ShriekingHarpy - before the loinfruit I would most probably have died in my own home crushed to death by my own collectibles and hoarding and lack of use of the dishwasher. Most men I have dated have been horrified by my lack of ability to tidy paper, clothes and shoes into orderly piles.

Women have historically done a lot of the bringing up of these men which is why any child is a huge responsibility but having a son has made me realise just how huge that responsibility is. I don't want him to need a wife or partner (as a domestic slave), I would like him to want one (and very much cherish them too).

TFP- why does she put up with it? If I'd have done that I'd have had a tin of polish and a duster placed in my hand before I knew it.

So would my DH, however I think her DH has convinced her she's lucky to be with him. It's a trick of most people with the power in a relationship, they build you up up up with hot air and flattery then slowly pull away all that was solid underneath.

Wow - you can tell I don't dust. I thought polish came in aerosol cans or those wet wipey type things! Tins!

"Have you noticed how many bachelors live in a similar state?"

Have you noticed how many don't?

Honestly, most of the men I know who live/d alone, lived in perfectly civilised surroundings.

It's only when they moved in with women, that they stopped pickign up their own shit.

And as usual Shrieking Harpy you're diverting the focus of attention onto women's response to men's entitlement, instead of the sense of entitlement itself. If men didn't have that sense of entitlement, women wouldn't have to either not do it or do it without complaining. That's the point, not how women react.

Truckulent, Why does she put up with it? This is the million dollar question. It's like asking Why can't we change the world?

I put up with stuff like that because (A) it developed slowly over the years. It wasn't like that in the beginning, (B) By the time it was really grating on me I had very little in the way of alternatives to living under his roof as I had been a SAHM for a long time and couldn't get back into the workforce at a level that would have paid for childcare for 5 DCs and (C) I had all the stuffing knocked out of me by the chipping away of confidence through constant criticism that had taken place over the years. Sucker punched every time I raised my head above the water in fact. It leaves you very wobbly when you try to contemplate managing in a new situation. At least with what you have it's familiar and you can cling to the malignant hope that he will change...

exH would clean the house occasionally whether it needed it or not, and it felt like living with an angry tornado for the hours it took him. I don't know where he got the energy to go on the tears he went on with mop and broom and duster. The kind of energy that goes with madness.

TSH....None of those thread titles are seriously asking if the OP should commit violence.

TSH, that's right, suck up. They're handing out s later to the good ones.

Ouch TSH - not nice no and not acceptable whoever's doing the fighting talk (shoot 'em in the head being the phrase du jour I believe) BUT it has a context:

• In the majority of incidents of domestic violence in 2007/8 the victims were women 85% (Home Office Report: Crime in England and Wales 2007/2008)

• Violence causes more death and disability worldwide amongst women aged 15-44 than war, cancer, malaria and traffic accidents (World Bank Study World Development Report: Investing in Health, New York, Oxford University Press, 1993)

• 54% of UK rapes are committed by a woman?s current or former partner. (Walby, Sylvia and Allen, Jonathan (2004) Domestic violence, sexual assault and stalking: Findings from the British Crime Survey (London: Home Office Research, Development and Statistics Directorate)

• Female victims are more likely to be killed by someone they know: in 2007/8, 73% of female victims knew the main or only suspect at the time of the offence. Of these female victims, 48% were killed by their partner, ex-partner or lover. By comparison, 48% of male victims knew the main or only suspect. Of these male victims, 13% were killed by their partner, ex-partner or lover (Home Office Statistical Bulletin: Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2007/08)

TSH...Most people, you included, seem to be convinced that a patriarchy does not breed a male sense of entitlement. Well it does, it's hidden, it's obvious, it's everywhere. From the general acceptance of humour at the expense of women, even rape victims, from the 'entitled' sex drive to the pat on the back, brown wings, everything....the way the world stops for 22 players on a pitch!

Oh FGS TSH you know perfectly well that the generic men doesn't mean ALL men everywhere.

You are so dishonest, we have had this conversation several times before and if you still don't know that, it's because you are deliberately ignoring it. Or you're very forgetful.

PMSL at the idea of this thread as being man hating;

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1083601-before-I-whack-DH-with-my-ugly-cudgel-please-tell-me-I-am-right

There is a low level of latent sexism that pervades MN - especially AIBU. I've lost count of how many threads I've seen and thought to myself "If a man posted that he'd be roasted alive".

There's also a small number of posters who - when responding to a thread which is no more than a snapshot from one individual on a tiny section of someone's life that instantly shouts "abuse" or whatnot for what typically reads as a very trivial issue.

Unfortunately these small number of idiots seem to make the most noise which unfortunately gives this site its reputation as a home for demented men hating harpies. Which is a shame as there are some people people posting who are very clever, very insightful and do offer a perspective that more men could do with being exposed to. Unfortunately they're drowned out by said idiots.

I'll also say that as diverting as it is at times, the standard of debate on these forums is very very poor.

And I post all this as a woman holding a relatively senior job in an organisation that historically has been extremely "macho" male profession.

And wrt to rape discussion, I believe that the fundamental problem with rape conviction rates (and out of interest the conviction rate for rape is about the same as for most types of violent crime) is that a large amount of rape cases involve two people, in private carrying out an act that at any other time would be entirely legal. It boils down to one persons word against another and unless we make some pretty major changes to the UK's legal system, this is very hard to establish 'beyond all reasonable doubt'.

I think a fundamental problem with rape conviction rates is the alarming aclarcity with which most people will believe, perpetuate and defend, rape myths.

Okay I'm going to go out on a limb here and openly state: I think I might be a little bit racist (to almost quote the Avenue Q song) - and the reason why I say that, is as a white middle-class woman, I have to remind myself of the battles I don't have to fight. So while I would recoil at EVER being consciously racist (and I don't mean to pull the but my best friend is black card but my son is half pakistani) I sometimes have to pull myself up at my assumptions e.g.

• all black people are naturally good dancers/sportsmen/women etc (bad news for the black kids at school who want to be doctors/lawyers etc)

• ooh that lady in the hijab just spoke in perfect English (why wouldn't she?)

so I have to consciously acknowledge and work against assumptions I have formed unconsciously.

That's the sense of entitlement - the assumption that your wife will do more than an equal share of childcare, housework, be paid less etc. It involves a giant mental reboot and challenging yourself as to why? and is that fair?

YANBU - however there have been men and women who have pulled posters for more genuine posts of sexism rather than the normal 'having a rant about a partner' type threads.

But it is distinguishable, I wouldn't post if DP was being sweet but I might if we were having an argument and needed a sense of perspective (that might or might not go my way).

I have also noted that it isn't just men who get it, it's women too (look at all the SIL/MIL/Bitch Female Boss at work threads) - I should know I've just started one .

I think women do use this as a place to joke or vent their feelings about an argument, but I do feel there are enough decent people on mumsnet who wouldn't let others get away with genuine sexism. And it might take any new poster (male or female) to get used to this dynamic.

Oh you're much more likely be a victim of violent crime as a young white man than any other demographic group.

I was much more worried about my son when he was out and than I was for my daughter.