to think the Irish..

[GeruptaSingh]

...do not know a good thing when they are given one

Let them eat cheese: anger as Ireland plans handouts of cheddar to the poor

That is a headline from a newspaper

I wish someone would give me free cheese,I love the stuff

ungratefull buggers

and the big problem is that many people have taken big cuts in income, but this isn't matched by cuts in expenditure - so our mortgages etc are still at the same levels, but we have less money to pay them with. And the cost of living is horrendous (Tesco makes more profit in its Irish stores than virtually everywhere else!).

On the OAPs, there's a huge range - DP's mother has state pension and tiny pension from her husband. My neighbour has 2 pensions, no mortgage, plus state pension (and can afford a new car every year). Ex-colleagues here again, huge pensions (?40k pa), plus state pension, no mortgages or related outgoings. Quite why Mary White (Greens) was saying that OAPs were in negative equity I don't know - most of them don't have mortgages, or if they do, took them out well before the boom...I don't want poor pensioners to suffer, but really, someone wrote to the paper the other week saying, oh, but medical cards are means-tested for pensioners - you won't get one if your income is over ?700 per week...

OK. I should shut up now and go back to work

I would vote for any party with hope of providing a stable government or the majority of a stable government, so that would be FF right now as the biggest party. Any coalition consisting of small parties would be basically a neverending dogfight of parties representing small interest groups defending their turf/constituencies, with a string of crisis elections probable just when the country needs unity and some sort of long term vision, plus stable management of the current huge problem and the endorsement of the electorate for some sort of clear plan to do so. I would basically vote for stability over mayhem.

I also think any parties among the current crop who went into an election appealing to their various different core voters would leave a very sour taste in the mouth of many of their voters if they were all to band together just to keep FF out -- FG plus Labour plus a few independents plus SF plus Greens (those last two not implausible)? Would such a government last six weeks?

I think it would last, math. I think the anti-FF sentiment is stronger than FG/lab (& others) natural antipathy.

Bear in mind bonds today reached 8%, Morgan Kelly predicting a sky-falldown* in the Times and the visit of the EU Ec. Commissioner - all today.

• He's probably right.

Not to mention Mary O'Rourke (TD, & aunt of Minister for Finance) speaking against pension cuts for OAP's, on the grounds that younger people on Jobseekers can always get a nixer, while OAP's are sadly excluded from the Black economy.
It's laughable. In a grim handwringing sorta way.

It might hold together, but possibly only because it would lack the political will or the electoral endorsement to wield the knife where it's needed.

My two FG TDs are children of previous TDs - that seems to be another problem. Why do people vote for a family? How many of the cabinet have at least one elderly or late relative who was in the Dail? It is hard to think of one who isn't a 'chip off the old block'.

yes, I totally don't get that dynastic thing in Irish politics - or the obsession with very local issues to the detriment of national issues, or the concern with the unborn, but the frankly terrible treatment of children with SN, adults with any kind of disability etc etc.

In fact, increasingly, I feel, that even though I have lived here since 1994, I understand nothing about what happens or how things work here. I feel that I have been labouring under some delusion of understanding and acceptance...but I am having a bad day :)

The devil you know...?

Irish voters and Irish political culture in general tends to favour the orthodoxy/schism model of development (see the development of FF and FG, and even Labour in the early 20th century, and also the SF/Provos/Real IRA etc. splits over the years). The orthodox-leaning voters will reliably vote for someone whose father or grandfather is fondly remembered as 'solid'. And the idea of a dynasty appeals to something in the Irish too (look at the reverence for the Kennedys).

x-posted a bit...

Not to mention the active encouragement to go into the 'family business' by the families themselves. What better way to enhance the standing of the family and all the family connections living and doing business in the constituency than to seek one of their own to groom for politics? And how fallen would the mighty feel if someone else, one of their own neighbours or someone from a competing undertaking business or pub or contracting business edged them out?

Or maybe it's simply that people like to think they know and will therefore be better represented by, someone whose character and values they share... It's not all cute hoorism, unless the electorate are all cute hoors, which I suspect is the truth in some places.

There was a similar feeling of having their voice or their stake in the way things were run taken away from them in the part of the country my mum is from when a bishop was appointed to the local diocese who was not from that particular part of the county, after a long string of people well-known to and related to most of the people there, including my mum's family.

The Healy-Rae phenomenon might possibly be cute hoory?

mathanxiety you would seriously vote for fianna fáil again?

time for my first because i am truly speechless.

Not really; it shouldn't be conflated with populism or having a very rural constituency. Healy-Rae senior retained his power since 1997 despite splitting from FF, because of his carefully tended local power base. FF were wrong to count him out back then, and he wielded influence in the government of the time hugely disproportionate to his position or location because of the marginal nature of the FF led government at that time.

All of the dynasties all over the country are built partially in the knowledge that splitting from the major party may not spell disaster for the individual TD involved and may well mean the major party is in thrall to the support of someone with a very local axe to grind ('All politics is local' was coined by Tip O'Neill, Irish American politician). The trick is to never burn your bridges completely, play the power balance delicately, which is what the Healy-Raes are doing. So cute yes (and maybe hoors), but local loyalty is what politics is about -- filtering down the spoils of power to the local constituency.

I can see others following suit if FF looks like a sinking ship or if some sort of loose coalition of any kind takes shape. Not necessarily formally renouncing FF and running independently but there are some people with safe seats who usually bring in a coat-tailer, and maybe two in a good election, who can dictate terms pretty effectively to a shaky government. It can only work if a balance is carefully maintained and the parties don't fly apart altogether.

wrt voting -- I wouldn't be exactly enthusiastic about it, but more bitterly realistic.

1. I want a horse.

2. And cheese.

3. Yes, OP, YABU.

4. Excuse my ignorance, but what's wrong with saying "the Irish"? I don't mind when people say "the Americans." Is it bad to say the Irish? I don't think I ever have, but certainly wouldn't want to offend. I'm genuinely curious.

I agree with KerryMumbles about everyone going a bit mental during the boom years... The amount of money spent by ordinary people on designer labels for example....

To a certain extent the country is still run on the basis of who you know, not what you know. One of the TDs in your neck of the woods StL was a senator first, might have been the youngest ever iirc, straight out of school (I knew him slightly). The idea that someone like that was qualified to run the country is laughable...

Opinion polls today have Brian Cowen's approval rating at 11%. All time low.

That sounds more like a margin of error than an approval rating...

I know, it's pretty tragic. I doubt he'll be surprised though. Even if he gets his budget through and his financial bill passed. We're still looking at a general election within 3 or 4 months.

He better make the most of that enormous salary while he still can.

He's got the ministerial pension, he'll be grand.
What do you make of Olli Rehn?
His staff have been in the Department of Finance since September. I wonder what is happening behind the scenes.

The general election won't really matter if there's any dipping into the Euro bailout fund -- if that happens it'll be someone from the Bundesbank running the country.

really, I don't know about all of you, but I just want to know what the hell is going on - I don't even really feel that I can start my xmas shopping until the budget, and even then, there's no guarantee that they won't be back again in 6 months. It's very stressful, not knowing, isn't it?

The lady at DD's nursery said to me today that all the kids are a bit subdued, a bit down, and I'm sure it's because everyone is under stress :(

I hope Olli Rehn and his merry men will find all the leaks in that particular bucket, Wukter.

oh, and I realise that xmas shopping is really the least of our worries...but still

I'm inclined to think the Bundesbank are already there, Math.