not to understand people with very young children who say they have no choice but to work?

[nesomja]

Whenever there's anything that touches on being a SAHM / WOHM on here, several people pop up saying how lucky people are to have a choice, that they have no choice but to work and basically to stop whinging about it. I can't work it out because I am pretty sure that next year when I will have two under-3s, it will cost us money for every day I work as childcare is so expensive. So are all the people who say they have no choice those with older children or only one child? Or are they very high earners or do they have access to low cost childcare? For me it feels the other way round, that I will not be able to choose to work - but yet it often seems to be presented as if SAHM are living a luxury lifestyle, propped up by their wealthy husbands. Why is it okay not to be able to afford not to work, but not okay not to be able to afford to go to work?

You are assuming they are employed rather than self-employed. As an employee you are guaranteed your job back after taking maternity leave etc. As a business owner, if I took a year off or even actually 3 months off, the business would be really struggling.

I know a lot of business owners who go back to work insanely early because they really do have no choice. My accountant went back 4 days after having her last daughter.

I work for myself. I was taking calls within 24 hours of the birth of the twins but it wasn't that hard. I'd had a baby not a major operation. I was taking calls not building roads.

MoralDisorder, your beef is misplaced. My friend's children have not started school yet. I did choose my example carefully.

I think we are just poles apart in our understanding of time noseynoonoo... I dont think that missing 10 or so hours of your childs day, 5 days a week equates to 'hardly ever seeing them'

I actually dont know anyone who 'hardly ever' sees their children.

Whatever you say it is an overly emotive way of explaining your own perception.

I also think if you told many fathers that they 'hardly ever' saw their children because they work they would probably be pretty offended.

In fact even my cousin who's children are in boarding school wouldnt say she hardly ever sees her children.

My partner brings home £1100 per month. Even if we moved to a cheaper suburb, far away from family, friends, nursery & our community our rent would be at least £1100 per month. So we might get a few tax credits - enough for council tax, food, clothes, electricity, travel, god forbid a wee holiday once in a while??? It just doesn't add up - I have no choice but to work. We live very frugally, 3 (soon to be 4) of us in a one bedroom flat. How we are going to get through 6 months maternity leave without my income is a mystery - I'm trying to save what I can now to get us through. I have no choice but to work - what about that don't you GET?

I think Moraldisroder you are looking for a fight. You are objecting for the sake of objecting - being overemotive for effect, as a defence mechanism, whatever. You are certainly proving the OP's point. I am not judging, you are choosing to read into my comments what suits you and your argument. I was giving examples of 2 extremes of choice both of which are valid. I don't understand why you have to assume I'm judging one to be good, one to be bad. I was pointing out that people make choices and that is their perogative.

My husband hardly sees our children. He wouldn't be offended by a statement of fact. Why would he be offended?

And as for your cousin having children at boarding school but still not being a position to be described as 'hardly ever seeing them' - that is frankly laugh out loud!

I'll check back later to see which of my sentences you have chosen to misinterpret. It's keeping me amused at least. Presumably you think I'm a SAHM with nothing to do anyway.

FindingMyMojo sums up the problem really. The lack of real choice is down to the high cost of the essentials in the UK (housing, transport,council tax, heating) are difficult to cut back on. The luxuries (clothes, holidays, gadgets) are relatively cheap. This makes it hard for middle earners who get no assistance to manage on one wage.
The other advantage to both parents working, maybe part time, is it can promote equality and family teamwork. Men in this situation often see their children a lot and look after them and do more housework, so that can be a good thing both for women and for children to witness.

Findingmymojo - I'm guessing you live in London? The rent on a 3 bedroom house round here is half that!

I think this example perfectly shows precisely why we shouldn't judge others decisions. If you hadn't said how much you pay on rent it would be easy for me to say your DP earns the same as my DH and we get by on his wage alone. Unless you know the full circumstances you can't judge.

Yes we do asouthwoldmummy - and frankly I'd be lucky to find a 2 bed (let alone 3 bed) flat (dear I even dream of a garden?????) for that price - it would be pretty crappy, nothing nice, no garden, probably a rather shoddy conversion in a less desirable area miles from work. I'd probably then HAVE to run a car too (as you often do in these far flung suburbs), which we don't at the moment.

I'd love to live somewhere where rent etc is much less - as we spend more time than ever at home now it's important home is a nice as possible. That would involve us both changing jobs & moving away from family & friends & life as we know it.

Of course it's a choice as we could all live in benefits. I'm not that happy about all aspects of the welfare state but we still haev one and if you want a life of total idleness and never to work it's there for the taking. Most people dont' want their income to be the level of state benefits so they put income above children if you want to call it that as do most fathers who abandon their children and subcontract their care to others including their partner and go forth and work. In fact children benefit from higher incomes etc anyway so they tend to do better if parents work.

Findingmy - if you worry how to cope in maternity leave don't have one. No one forces you to. I breastfed for over 12 months with all the children and I worked full time back in a couple of weeks. Then you don't lose income. It works very well. I recommend it but I work for myself so have no maternity rights at all I suppose

what a wonderful solution - why hadn't I thought of that Xenia (feeling a bit snappish today are we?)

and actually we couldn't ALL live on benefits now could we? BTW the self employed are perfectly entitled to SMP.

Why do people feel the need to go on about benefits as if all sahm's rely on the state?

I don't actually think anyone on this thread has said they choose to be a sahm and live off the state rather than work. If you can afford to live on only one wage then good for you, if you can't and have to work that's fine too.

FWIW are there any sahm's here who would say they're dependent on benefits? My guess is probably not.

perhaps Xenia feels SMP is a benefit?

Xenia may be 'entitled' to SMP but as a self employed person you can't ever sit back and say 'i'm entitled' to anything.

Every bean on your plate is there cause you put it there.

SMP is a benefit. Its a luxury actually seeing as people dont get it all over the world.

Obviously talking about SAHM parents on benefits is very different to talking about SAHMs who are funded by their partner. Its just that the conversation goes one way and then the other back and forth.

Oh nosey I wasn't picking a fight. I was juast making the point, not very articulately, that I have read often on MN that someone isnt judgemental of working mums but the language they use (sometimes unknowingly, sometimes knowingly) suggests otherwise. That's all. I havent got time to pick fights with people I dont know for the sake of it

Also, if Xenia is working and paying tax and can't take time out for maternity leave... but others are doing so... then in fact her taxes are funding a benefit that others enjoy and she is unable to take herself.. so i do think she deserves an opinion.

But surely you can't interpret "if you want a life of total idleness and never to work it's there for the taking" as being about smp or even cb for that matter.

I was just saying anyone on the thread could go on state benefits. The state doesn't currently stop you. It's a choice therefore to work.

Now you might not like that low level of income but thye choice is still there and for me SMP would hardly cover our food bill never mind other expenses so living on that was not something I wanted to do and my twins are enormous 12 year olds now so I am out of the baby phase anyway but we all benefit now from the fact I didn't stop work to have them.

So yes I was "able" or could haevb een capable of taking SMP or MA or whatever they call it when you're self employed although with the first 3 babies I wasn't by the way - in the early 80s unless you'd been employed for 2 years I think i t was you had no maternity rights. With baby 1 I hadn't . I then changed jobs. Had baby 2 so again no maternity leave/pay rights and iwth baby 3 I had been hired when 5 months pregnant with 2 chidlren under 4 (amazing how people will employ you if they want you even if in that situation) so third time no maternity rights either and then with the twins self employed! So I managed 5 babies over 26 years without any rights except I think 6 weeks at 90% pay with some of the earlier ones may be. And yes that hugely benefited me.

I earn the minimum weekly wage per hour now in my 40s because I took no maternity leave in my 20s. it can make that big a difference to female earnings. So in a sense maternity rights being improved have damaged women and their earning capacity and kept them chained to kitchens and in domestic service at home

I am entitled to no maternity pay/allowance as I was a student when I found out I was pregnant. I am entitled to no JSA/income support either as my partner works full time, but there is no way we can cover even our basic living expenses (very humble 2 bed house) on his wages (they do not take his actual income into account - only that he works full-time hours). So I have no choice but to work full-time (as a temp on minimum wage as it was all I could get being pregnant and all - and was lucky to even get that) for as long as possible up to the birth and return to work (if I can find any) asap afterwards - or we will go further and further into debt every month, or simply be unable to pay our bills/rent etc. That is just reality. The government will not always provide even enough to cover the most basic of living costs. In terms of childcare - I will just have to work when my dp is not working, so that may have to be nights etc. or I'll have to get grandparents to help out etc. Some people really do have no choice. Honestly.

Sorry roxie - how afwul that it's so tough for you. Make sure you claim child tax credit/working tax credit as soon as your baby is born, it should help a little. And I certainly don't class it relying on benefits as some would have you believe. I think people like you are mainly who CTC was set up to help, you're happy to work but still struggling.

So the reality is that girls at age 14 shoudl do what I do and be in the public library or on line these days getting books out on "what people earn" and pick good well paid careers and pass a lot of exams etc and then the whole of their life will tend to be a lot easier and parents can help my steering them in the right direction.

I was same situation as you roxie. I had my daghter 2 years ago and was a student so was in uni on my due date and then went back to uni after a week. I didnt miss 1 day or 1 assignment (as it was half term) and then did waitressing and cleaning in the evenings. Then after 14 weeks went back doing cleaning, waitressing and working in a bank temping. I didnt bother breastfeeding as it would of been impossible to fit it all in. I didnt sleep really and just drank loads of energy drinks and did all my work and essays when she was asleep, arranged jobs that I could bring her in to work with me and also did things in the evening.

It is stressful but all worked out as I did it and managed to get a 2:1 and she is now 3 and very happy. Good luck.

Snowflake - Good on you, must have been tough. can't help admire someone with that kind of determination.

Yes it should work out in the end! I'm studying medicine as a mature student (now taking one year out) so at least I know one day I'll be earning a decent salary! That's what annoys me most - I worked full time and paid tax for a good 8 years before I started my degree, and will probably pay a decent amount in the future but now when I could do with a bit of help to see me through it's just not there! Getting pregnant probably wasn't the most sensible thing to do but it was genuinely unplanned - and at 28 we decided to go with it and just do the best we can!

P.S. Snowflake I admire you for keeping going like that - in hindsight i wish i hadn't taken a year out as I have spent my pregnancy "wasting time" doing cruddy jobs to keep the money coming in and I wouldn't have been much worse off on a student loan! And I'll probably have to go back to work soon after birth. Reason I took a year out is that I am due around exam time - but you never know I might have gone into labour on an exam free day and it could have worked out perfectly! Hats off to you though - and getting a 2:1 as well. x