not to understand people with very young children who say they have no choice but to work?

[nesomja]

Whenever there's anything that touches on being a SAHM / WOHM on here, several people pop up saying how lucky people are to have a choice, that they have no choice but to work and basically to stop whinging about it. I can't work it out because I am pretty sure that next year when I will have two under-3s, it will cost us money for every day I work as childcare is so expensive. So are all the people who say they have no choice those with older children or only one child? Or are they very high earners or do they have access to low cost childcare? For me it feels the other way round, that I will not be able to choose to work - but yet it often seems to be presented as if SAHM are living a luxury lifestyle, propped up by their wealthy husbands. Why is it okay not to be able to afford not to work, but not okay not to be able to afford to go to work?

is those things the government sent out to every baby born after 2002 so you can open a savings account or something?

Begony - you're thinking of child trust funds (CTF's)

tax credit site is here

CHild tax credit? Just been on their website. Don't know anyone who gets it. Why do people get it?

After tax, I make about £20 a day more than DS's nursery costs (actually probably slightly more because of the effects of childcare vouchers - these don't cover all his fees). I work three days a week. It's not a lot - but we need it. We don't have luxuries, we don't have holidays, we're always out of money by payday and struggling to buy food. I earn more than minimum wage, but less than the national median.

So we really couldn't afford for me not to work.

I went back to work when my eldest was a year old, and when my 2nd was born five years later I went back to work after five weeks. I worked full time 12 hour days and taking work home as an Office Manager for 13 years. Neither of my children suffered, I could have stayed at home but I wanted to be more than a mother pushing a buggy.

I worked darn hard to give them everything I never had and some. When my eldest got to 18 I had to give up work because to have worked would have meant he couldn't go to Uni and that is something I wanted for him more than anything.

My youngest who is 17 goes next year.

I have not worked for three years now, but now due to ill health.

It is a matter of choice, and I say it is up to anybody what they wish to do.

I think you need to be more than a mother, you also need to be yourself too.

I am also a single parent and always have been so I did not have help. I paid for childcare.

Does your cleaner who will do anything for £7 an hour have to pay 2 x full-time nursery fees moraldisorder?

How is that anecdote relevant to op?

Does she pay tax as well?

Well as I said above our nanny brought her babies to work once they arrived. Our cleaner has if she has a domestic emergency (and her mother came to live with her for a time when the last baby was born to ensure the mother could still work at her various jobs). People just have different views on what efforts they will make for work and what is an acceptable life and compromise.

Child tax credit was a mistake as it made everyone earning undr about £60k benefit claimants even more dependant on the state. I've never got it but move parents in the UK claim it. It would be much better to abolish it and simply tax and then when we can afford it reduce tax rates. You will then ensure more private sector jobs are created.

I think there's a big difference between being dependant on the state and claiming what you're entitled to.

I had a moral dilemma when we started receiving DLA for DS. The extra care I provide for him obviously any decent mum would do without thinking about. DH reminded me that we weren't cheating the benefit system, we were just being honest about his condition, ultimately it was decided by HMRC.

Xenia,

you're either a pushover or remarkably progressive. As much as I was fond of our maid, I'd never have had her bringing any babies/children to work (unless it was extraordinary circumstances). - good on you. Sure they appreciate you.

Well most empoyers who want to keep someone (and indeed keep the close relationship between the then three children and their nanny) would do the same and this is the UK. It's fairly common with long standing nannies in the UK. Also the older 2 were at school by then anyway so it worked out fine.

In some countries women move from the Philippines to the UK or Estonia or Dubai and have to leave their children in their homeland. It's not like that here which is a good thing. In fact we had two nannies who took maternity leave whic is pretty difficult for the employer because it's not just replacing the physical effort of that employee. It's the break from the children too but it worked out fine both times.

I agree wtith xenia I have worked as a cleaner and in a nursery and other jobs and I always bring my daughter with me. Cleaning jobs always let you take your kids here. A lot of my friends do it or no one would clean the shops and hotels and there are loads here. Its always best to ask at the agency or when you go for the job and with cleaning its usually always a yes.

YABU or, more plainly, Bugger Off.

Option 1.

I work, we have a roof over our heads, food on the table, clothes on our backs.

Option 2

I don't work, we struggle to find somewhere to live that will take housing benefit, struggle on benefits to feed and clothe children.

Is that clear enough for you.

If you are lucky enough that your partner earns enough to keep you all, fanbloodytastic. If you are happy with option 2, good for you!

I'd prefer to work and support my 2 under 5s thankyouverymuch.

Now, as I said earlier. BUGGER OFF.

babyheave that made me laugh.. and even if your partner does earn enough... thsoe men ain't nailed to the floor - they have legs and often use 'em!

nameymcnamechange Im sorry if you didnt feel my post was relevent but I felt that the conversation had moved on somewhat and that my post was relevent to the current stage of conversation. But yes, as others have said - you can take your kids with you often. My cleaner has 3 children. Sometimes she brings them, sometimes theyre with her mum. She irons from her own house when they're in bed... she works around it.

YANBU.

This is an interesting topic. The OP is quite right that any discussion about working mums results in people saying they have no choice - if they didn't work they'd be homeless. Of course this will always be the case for some people but if money is the only consideration then I think for some other working mums lifestyle is the deciding factor. Many couples could afford for one parent to be at home parenting rather than working if they cut back or had a different house or perhaps got everything in place before they had children. However, a lot of people don't plan their future family income before having a baby or prefer to trade-up their lifestyle at some point. I don't think that people are honest about this.

I also think that there is a lot of guilt felt on both sides. I have a friend who leaves work before the children get up and sees them for bath time in the evening. She says she feels guilty but prefers to work and have a large house. She says she couldn't be a SAHM. I also have a SAHM friend who feels like she'll be judged for being a SAHM - she can't see that she should just be proud to be a fantastic full-time parent.

There is also a lot of assumption here that SAHMs are claiming benefits. The only benefit that my SAHM friends claim is child benefit and not all of them claim that. In that case, what is there to criticise?

I have sympathy for people who have careers who can't afford to miss years from their career. That's how women fall behind in the work place. However, at the same time, can mums afford to miss years of their children's early years?

It seems that whatever I think I can also think of the opposing view. What I do know is that I hate that women always seem to have an opinion on other women's choices. How can women advance if we can't stick together? If we spent a lot less time feeling guilty and a lot less time slagging each other off we'd be so much more effective.

We need a lot mroe of them working full time and a lot more men taking up childcare responsibilties though. Aty prseent 4 in 5 women marry up and their husbands earn more and plenty therefore just work for pin money so their work is never very important. Taht has to change. We've a huge long way to go to make that change and the more women who duck out of work and become housewives the harder it will be for our daughters to run companies, nations and pursue good careers. Thus it is a political decision if you work

Noseynoonoo I agree with some of what you have said. However, I would say, as much as you seem to be very understanding of peoples choices there is still the usual undercurrent of judgement with phrases like 'can mums afford to miss years of their children's early years?'

Sentances like that, however well meaning, put peoples backs up.. I dont think anyone who is a working mum needs to read that others may interpret their 'choice' as 'missing years of their childrens lives'

Its a bit like when people say 'Oh, each to their own, i dont judge anyone elses choice but I wouldnt want strangers looking after my children..'

It does highlight an area of ignorance about what is actually going on in peoples lives.

Excellent post NosynoNoo

"I also think that there is a lot of guilt felt on both sides. I have a friend who leaves work before the children get up and sees them for bath time in the evening. She says she feels guilty but prefers to work and have a large house."

Now that for me wouldn't work. I don't see the point in having children if you hardly ever get to see them. I would have put my children before my lifestyle, but that is only my personal view.

"I also have a SAHM friend who feels like she'll be judged for being a SAHM - she can't see that she should just be proud to be a fantastic full-time parent."

I can sympathise with that. Whenever I had to answer questions regarding my occupation I used to feel that saying that I was a housewife gave the impression that I didn't have much to offer society

"I have sympathy for people who have careers who can't afford to miss years from their career. That's how women fall behind in the work place. However, at the same time, can mums afford to miss years of their children's early years?"

Interesting point. Most of this is academic for me because I didn't have DD until I was 41 and I had reached as far as I wanted to go careerwise. I now work part-time - for the same company but in a different role. My family take priority over my career, but again, that is a very personal view based on my age (52) and my experiences.

I'm sure I would have very different views if I had had DD when I was in my 20s.

Is it really 4 out of 5 Xenia? Shit. That's a sad statistic.

Now that for me wouldn't work. I don't see the point in having children if you hardly ever get to see them. I would have put my children before my lifestyle, but that is only my personal view. another well meaning sentance.

I personally find the phrase 'full time parent' quite offensive. I am no less of a FT parent just because I work. Not like I hand over parenthood to the nursery every day

Our outgoings are around £1500 a month and we have no debts at all.

After tax OH earns £900 a month, I earn £1200 a month.

I will therefore have to go back to work.

Luckily our childcare will be completely free as we both have mothers more than willing to look after our baby while we are at work.

dont you love the way that women love to rip each other to pieces over this debate. leaving that aside:

"Why is it okay not to be able to afford not to work, but not okay not to be able to afford to go to work?"

if I can get my head round the double negatives -op, not everyone has to pay 2 or 3 x nursery fees in order to go to work, as you say it is not v economic - many people rely on family for childcare.

however if you are in a career job you may need to stay in work so that your skills and experience stay up to date - the child care costs can decrease sharply once kids are at school but if you have not been working during that time you may not be able to resume a career where you left off.

moraldisorder.
And your point is?

Just coming back to this now. Two random thoughts:

• while both DH and I are high earners, we would be homeless if I didn't work, because we wouldn't be able to meet our monthly outgoings on his salary alone. Clearly we have the 'choice' to default on our mortgage, lose our home, and end up in a rented flat, but that's not really a choice we'd relish

• I am not offended by the phrase 'full time parent'. While I am working, I am of course still a parent, but do not have immediate responsibility for my DD therefore I am not parenting at that moment in time.