to get DD a white poppy to wear at a remembrance service?

[GallumDrawnAndQuartered]

She is 14 and has been selected by the school to represent her house at their service.

DD is vehemently pacifist and anti-war.

Rather than her get in trouble for refusing to go (which is what she is planning on doing) would it be unreasonable for her to go but to wear a white poppy instead of a red one?

Wearing a poppy is a sign of respect and it would be good if your daughter understood it is respectful to wear a red poppy to remember those who sacrificed their lives. Maybe if she understood that a lot of the young men who went to war had no choice but to go and were probably shit scared about it, she would be more inclined to wear one and understand it respects the dead?

Seeker - Harry Patch still wore a red poppy though. And he did attend Remembrance events in his later years.

But with - truly - the greatest respect to Harry Patch, there are tens of thousands of other people who did not make it home to be able to express a view about remembrance events.

Extremely good point, seeker.

My mother tells me her father, who was in the RAF in WW2, detested Remembrance Sunday. Like Harry Patch, he thought it was theatre - hated the politicians who had sent young men (and women) off to die showing off. Granddad saw too many young men who never returned. (He was in his 40s when war broke out, hence too old to fly - so particularly hard for him as an adult to wave off lads in their early 20s who he knew stood a high chance of not coming back).

He did think WW2 was entirely justified, that's why he and my Grandmother volunteered straight off. But once it was over, he thought we should concentrate on building a better future.

Rhinestone Wed 03-Nov-10 18:36:45
"Cory - ROFL at a private soldier joining the army for the vast wealth and riches on offer."

Not for vast wealth, but for wages. Just like some people go to work in Tesco's. Nobody is forced to join, are they? If they were only doing it out of a desire to protect their country, wouldn't they hold fire until there was some evidence that the wars about to be fought would be wars of defence? The truth is that it is a good long time since this country was in risk of invasion.

I'd just back her in making her request to not go to the service. Fair play to her for having the guts to stand up for her views at that age.

Another good point - Gallum, your dd deserves support for being prepared to stand up for her views even at the risk of clashing with her school.

Exactly Edam. I do sometimes watch the Cenotaph but it makes me so uneasy to see the politicians crying crocodile tears over the men and women that they send off to die. Similar to the Earl Haig latter-day conscience-salving.

I don't have a problem with wearing red poppies btw, and often wear one myself. The white poppy IMO says something "extra" about peace.

White feathers may have been an insult btw, but the conscientious objectors were brave.

Cory - look up at the sky, then read about the significance of Sputnik and the space race.

Countries don't need to be invaded by land and or sea anymore, not since the advent of inter-continental ballistic missiles. Now imagine Pakistan (a country with nuclear missiles) ruled by the Taleban / al Qaeda, whose stated intent is to bring about a worldwide caliphate whilst killing those who resist.

But yeah, just like Tescos otherwise.

YABU. She should decline the invitation on principle or wear the red poppy and get on with it gracefully. You should explain the fact that the red poppy is about remembering fallen soldiers who died for their country because they were conscripted, ie, didn't have a choice. It is because of young men like that that she lives in a democracy where free speech is a privilege. Very very rude indeed to attend and wear a white poppy and I think she needs to learn a few lessons about respect.

Probably best she just doesnt go OP. The second world war was the biggest of them all and so so many died especially in Russia. This was actually a war that we were justified in fighting as it was to stop the spread of fascism. I am a hardcore pacifist myself, war is ugly and it is insane but we had little choice about this one. What I detest is the attitude taken towards recent conflicts like Iraq totally illegal and about money and oil and yet we have to all pretend that soldiers serving over there are doing it to 'protect our freedom' even though we know that to be bullshit? Making these naive kids think they will be heroes but they are just cannon fodder for wars about greed that are not comparable to the second world war.

"The PPU supported appeasement[1] and backed Neville Chamberlain's policy at Munich in 1938, regarding Hitler's claims on the Sudetenland as legitimate. Some PPU supporters were so sympathetic to the grievances of Nazi Germany that one sceptical member found it difficult to distinguish between letters to Peace News and those in the newspaper of the British Union of Fascists.[2] The historian Martin Gilbert has argued that "it is hard to think of a British newspaper that was so consistent an apologist for nazi Germany as Peace News"."
from Wiki

A lovely heartwarming extract from Wiki, which will no doubt be gone by tonight.

History eh? Wouldn't be without it.

Really makes me love those cuddly "so far left we're actually fascist" White Poppy people.

Who says that remembrance day is specifically about WWII though? I thought if anything it was about WWI, and if not then it was about all wars. I oppose 99% of all wars and tbh get tired of being told that I am wrong because of Hitler. Yes, Britain has been involved in approximately one armed conflict in the past few hundred years that we were justified in fighting. Out of how many?

This is why the history channel and the school curriculum leaves us ignorant of the vast swathes of history outside of WWII for the most part. We might have to question whether war really is the glorious sacrifice we are supposed to believe it to be if we studied Vietnam or the Falklands or the Boer war etc etc. And then where will the willing stream of victims patriots who join the army come from?

Except the Daily Mail of course catinthehat.

The clue is in the fact that Neville Chamberlain (the prime minister of this country) also supported appeasement - it wasn't an extremist view at the time. Obviously v wrong in retrospect and I imagine there was hot debate about it at the time in people of all political beliefs.

"WHITE POPPIES ARE FOR PEACE
The idea of decoupling Armistice Day , the red poppy and later Remembrance Day from their military culture dates back to 1926, just a few years after the British Legion was persuaded to try using the red poppy as a fundraising tool in Britain.

A member of the No More War Movement suggested that the British Legion should be asked to imprint 'No More War' in the centre of the red poppies instead of ?Haig Fund? and failing this pacifists should make their own flowers.

The details of any discussion with the British Legion are unknown but as the centre of the red poppy displayed the ?Haig Fund? imprint until 1994 it was clearly not successful. A few years later the idea was again discussed by the Co-operative Women's Guild who in 1933 produced the first white poppies to be worn on Armistice Day (later called Remembrance Day). The Guild stressed that the white poppy was not intended as an insult to those who died in the First World War - a war in which many of the women lost husbands, brothers, sons and lovers. The following year the newly founded Peace Pledge Union joined the CWG in the distribution of the poppies and later took over their annual promotion."

seeker - why are you pasting that fascist shit here?!?

If it were my child, I would ask them if they felt they personally would rather not wear a red poppy badge. If so, they should inform their Head of House to talk about this, and since the school would be expecting their representatives to wear poppies, then ask if the responsibility can be given to another student. I don't wear a poppy either and would not want to be told I had to wear one, in order to take part in a remembrance service.

The girl has the freedom to choose but knowing what the school expects, should either wear a poppy, or decline to be the representative. She should not take a third way and wear a white poppy.

I think a lot of people-perhaps wrongly, see the white poppy as "anti war" and that since many who have died and are being remembered did not choose to fight, then it is an insult to their memory.

Gallum - I don't see how she wouldn't change her mind about wearing a Red poppy if she read more about it. Failing that, I don't see why it's a problem for them to send someone else in her place and why she doesn't feel free to say why she doesn't want to attend... but clearly there are things you haven't mentioned, so I don't know...

OP-what does she actually have to do to represent her house?

So do you have to agree with the war in which someone died, in order to remember them? Or to put it another way, should those who opposed the war in Iraq not be permitted to mourn for friends and family lost in that conflict.

This is what gets me about the strict rules around remembrance day. Being anti-war is not being anti-James Williams or Helen Jones in the Army. It is being against the people and institutions who send them off to be killed and to kill others. Yet the deaths and injuries of those who do fight, are used as a barrier between those who send them and public opinion. No, criticising Tony Blair or Nixon is not the same as forgetting or ignoring the people they sent to do their dirty work for them.

Is she refusing to attend because it would mean wearing a poppy, or because she is having to read something aloud or carry a standard or lay a wreath? Or because she doesn't want to attend a service of remembrance for all those who have died and been affected by wars throughout the last couple of centuries?

I think it is probably important for her to understand what it is about attending that she is having difficulty with. She has every right to make a stand - but she needs to be certain of what she is objecting to.

"seeker - why are you pasting that fascist shit here?!? "

Eh?

Because this thread is about the White Poppy Campaign, and I thought people might be interested in its history.