to get DD a white poppy to wear at a remembrance service?

[GallumDrawnAndQuartered]

She is 14 and has been selected by the school to represent her house at their service.

DD is vehemently pacifist and anti-war.

Rather than her get in trouble for refusing to go (which is what she is planning on doing) would it be unreasonable for her to go but to wear a white poppy instead of a red one?

Yes but people who join the forces are hardly humanitarians ..I mean you know when you join the British armed forces you are going to be fighting in aggressive wars which are NOT defensive. You will have the blood of innocent women and children on your hands. They are hardly fucking cuddly teddy bears that join.

picesmoon the point you made much earlier was as if the UK was this peaceful nation and nothing could be further from the truth. This is the very reason a terrorist threat exists here, because we go around the world invading places and wanting political control of regions of the world from which we can benefit from. Nothing has changed since colonialism only now it all comes under the banner of 'bringing democracy and freedom' to the people of these nations. It is really sad how many total fuckwits buy into this.

If we were all about people's freedoms we would be bombing the fuck out of Zimbabwe, Saudi Arabia etc etc

If you join the forces today you are saying to government I will scratch your back if you scratch mine. That is the way I see it. But the real sad part is that the majority of the kids they recruit from deprived areas have no knowledge of why they are REALLY there and think they are fighting in a just war. They think they are brave and heroic and they are just cannon fodder for a government who doesnt give a shit about them. Its so awful! I know of six young men who went to school with my sister who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan and not one of them was a bad person just misinformed. That said some who join do know what it is all about and its those people I cant stand.

I thought the purple poppy was a joke. Does it really exist? Remember the glorious dead (pigeons)? Really?

I will wear a red poppy. If I see someone wearing a white one I will assume that they are a pacifist (and a bit full of themselves) and if I see someone wearing a purple one I will assume that they love fluffy kittens and are slightly mad.

Luckily we live in a country where teenage girls are allowed to wear whatever poppy they want. That is what our grandfathers (and the glorious pigeons) were fighting for.

"the idea of the Uk/british people as anything other than an island of bloodthirsty marauding plunderers is hilarious, and i speak as one from a country colonised by them"

Yet again on Mumsnet.

Casual racism.

And nobody dares to pick this up with the poster. To conditioned to swallowing this kind of unpleasnt claptrap day in day out.

Try substituting any other race/nation's name for "UK/british" and your feet wouldn't touch the ground Chibi.

British isn't a race catinthehat2.

Don't misunderstand me

My post was not 'the uk is evil and everyone is pure and good'

In matters of war no one's hands are clean

to pretend that the uk goes to war reluctantly and with the purest of motives is disingenuous, no matter what any individual soldier tells him or herself

And so it goes for all nations

no one's hands are clean

what is racist about this?

and the wonderful things about the uk and it's people, which I love and which make me glad I love here do not mitigate or cancel these things out

So you're saying I have the blood of innocent women and children on my hands then, catholic? Well that's hard to visualise because as far as I recall I've never been involved in killing any innocent people.

Does a war have to be defensive in order for it to be just? What about the scores of people who have been helped by our current presence in Afghanistan and previous presence in Iraq. We're not people who run into a village and just shoots everyone, it's not like that (which is pretty obvious but you've gotta spell it out for some people). We regularly conduct humanitarian aid in our overseas deployments. We've provided water, social help and medical supplies to those worst hit by poverty (To add a little story, when I was in Iraq, I helped a woman deliver a baby healthily); but most importantly we've provided protection and security to the innocent people who have been caught up in this mess.

How are recruits being misinformed? What could they possibly not know about our current engagements? You think they're misinformed? Well I'm afraid you're wrong there. I'm currently training new recruits for active combat and I meet a lot of them in my working day, I've never met one who I would deem as "misinformed". We're not just a fighting force anymore, we're changing the lives of hundreds of people everyday in poverty-stricken countries through what we do, which for your information isn't just rocking up and shooting things.

I joined the military a long time ago but when the news came that we would be sent to Iraq and Afghanistan, I was never once in the dark about why we were there and what we needed to do. If that makes me one of those people who you can't stand then that's fine by me because by the looks of things I don't think I'll be signing up to your fan club any time soon.

And furthermore the national myths that sing to us of our goodness, our specialness, our purity of motives and our noble intentions are the same ones used to sell some mother's son on killing some other mother's son, dead the same for good, for god, for glory, or for naught

If there were a poppy for my grandfather, a peasant killed on land he found himself on by purest quirk of fate that everyone wanted for the best of reasons I would wear it

There is none

WingDad - when you say 'we' do you mean British troops? I take it you know of Baha Mousa? I take it you know that there are many cases going through the courts?

I take it you know the current government have set up an enquiry into torture? From the MOD website:
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/DefencePolicyAndBusiness/IraqHistoricAllegationsTeamStartsWork.htm "Given the volume of allegations and the complexity of investigating the events in question, we anticipate that it will take around two years to complete the work of the IHAT.

As I said to you above, with the greatest of respect, who are you trying to kid?

ncePolicyAndBusiness/IraqHistoricAllegationsTeamSt artsWork.htm Given the volume of allegations and the complexity of investigating the events in question, we anticipate that it will take around two years to complete the work of the IHAT

Right, third time lucky!

"Given the volume of allegations and the complexity of investigating the events in question, we anticipate that it will take around two years to complete the work of the IHAT.

www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/DefencePolicyAndBusiness/IraqHistoricAllegationsTeamStartsWork.htm

Yarp. There's no point denying it, what several British troops did in Iraq with regards to Baha Mousa and similar cases is inexcusable. They're criminals who deserve to be reprimanded severly.

But I fail to see how these acts should totally get in the way of all the good things that have been done in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I suppose you know of the improvements to schools we've made? The number of people we've brought water to? The number of people who have received medical aid from coalition forces? That list could go on.

The acts of the people who tortured Iraqis are atrocious, but don't allow those isolated incidents cloud your overall opinion of the war.

A million people died because of the invasion on Iraq. Perhaps they could of done a lot of good things?

Good things could have been done in Afghanistan without it being invaded. Just think what could of been achieved if billions of dollars/pounds had instead been given to RAWA. The situation now in Afghanistan is close to what it was before the invasion in vast parts of the country. Except foreign contracts have now been set up and their interests are protected. The Warlords that now control part of the country aren't very different to the Taliban that control the rest.

I think that people like to ignore the good WingDad-you won't get them to admit that anyone is actually helped-it is a waste of time trying.

Wingdad who on earth are you trying to kid...what we went into Iraq and made the country better..wtf? Yeah you provide a bit of humanitarian aid once we have fucked up all the infrastructure. Most of the things you provided were already in place prior to the invasion! Why did they need medical aid? The only reason any 'aid' is provided is so the people of the country dont see you as evil occupiers..but actually in the end despite your best efforts they did and you all had to get out of Basra and beg for them to let you out unharmed.

If it ever comes on I player watch the two part documentary called secret Iraq. Worth watching to see the fall out the invasion caused in that country!

picesmoon: what has helped? Please tell me what has helped in Iraq?

There are women in Kabul that have been helped picesmoon. But Kabul isn't Afghanistan.

You are quite right catholicatheist - Iraq had a better dental system than we had for one.

catholicatheist I see you're still talking out of your arse... Is it not getting a bit tired?

Guacamole..go back to your daily star!

just popped back to read over and seen this first -- iraq had a better dental system!

hahaha wheeze

so that's alright then

now..I'm sorry for the flippant tone..but that is the first smile raised on this thread

god I just read catholic's post.. why am I bothering..

They really did Appletrees. I was amazed to find that out. It wasn't funny for the three years I didn't have a dentist :(