Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to get DD a white poppy to wear at a remembrance service?

960 replies

GallumDrawnAndQuartered · 03/11/2010 16:23

She is 14 and has been selected by the school to represent her house at their service.

DD is vehemently pacifist and anti-war.

Rather than her get in trouble for refusing to go (which is what she is planning on doing) would it be unreasonable for her to go but to wear a white poppy instead of a red one?

OP posts:
seeker · 05/11/2010 09:29

'it's rude to go to a rememberance sevice with a symbol which basically says "Oh so many people died...if only you had all resolved the conflct better!""

This is the 6th post on this thread.

RitaLynn · 05/11/2010 09:29

I know this has been gone over, but one of the major points against the white poppy is what its opponents seem to think it might indicate, rather than what it does actually indicate.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 05/11/2010 09:30

But Appletrees, you know from other sections on MN that all people who wear certain labels do not agree with each other. I may sit cringing at the characterisation of soldiers as stupid etc. Other white poppy wearers might find my posts annoying and disagree with them.

The fact is that for some people the white poppy is a symbol of something they find positive and important, and I hope that you won't tar us all with the same brush. This thread was always going to be a barney as feelings run so high on this issue. Basically we all want to remember the dead and hope we never see such bloodshed again, whatever we're wearing (or not wearing) on our lapels.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 05/11/2010 09:32

..but I must add, we did not come up with the white poppy, it's a historical item nearly as old as the red one. Talk to the women who lived through WWI and take it up with them :)

Appletrees · 05/11/2010 09:33

You're saying that saying someone is "rude" for breaching convention at a sensitive time -- you're saying that is abuse justifying blinkered, ignorant, and all the rest?

I did not have you down as such a sensitive flower. And it that's a red flag to a pacifist, and, to mix metaphors, a green light to abuse -- er, you ain't a pacifist.

Appletrees · 05/11/2010 09:35

I don't actually -- Elephants there was a moment when I was disappointed when you made that sarcastic rubbish comment, but basically you really kept things very measured.

Yes yes, absolutely, no objection to a bunfight. But aggressive and insulting posts in the name of "there are better ways to resolve conflict" ..fuck off, fuck off, bullshit .. I mean, really.

Appletrees · 05/11/2010 09:36

Yes, I should say, more measured than me, but then I'm not claiming to be pious and non-conflictual.

Appletrees · 05/11/2010 09:38

Rita, yes you're right, and it's difficult for white poppy wearers to see that, and they insist we must see it differently. Which is all very well, but wishing something was the case doesn't make it the case.

Saltire · 05/11/2010 09:42

Gallum I have deliberatley not posted on this thread,up till now obviously, and I have what are (IMO) valid reasons for not posting on it. I have read it ,a nd think that your daughter has made a very mature decision. She may look back on this in 10-20 years time and cringe, or she may well ahve the same opinions.
But either way, good luck to her

RitaLynn · 05/11/2010 09:44

Yes, Appletrees, but in truth, that's not a very good reason not to wear a white poppy

People might be offended by someone wearing a Crucifix because they might think they're homophobic, or offended by someone with a Koran, in case they're a terrorist. That doesn't mean Christians or Muslims should slink away because of what people might think of them.

You're arguing for the right of the ignorant (and I use that term not in a rude way but in its true sense) to dictate to others how they remember the war dead.

seeker · 05/11/2010 09:54

I was merely indicating that it seemed to be open season on white poppy wearers from the beginning.

I know that only one person used the word "cunt", but none of tha anti white poppy brigace called her on it.

And I used the words "ignorant" and "blinkered" because it was patently obvious that the vast majority of posters knew/know absolutely nothing about the white poppy campaign and were not prepared to find out anything about it before they laid into those of us who wear one.

Attacking people on the basis of what you think they believe strikes me as a pretty good definition of ignorant and blinkered.

Appletrees · 05/11/2010 09:56

I'm afraid it doesn't work that way: the white poppy says something about the red poppy which not only offends -- it isn't true.

And I don't think people who see the white poppy as an insult to wearers of the red poppy are ignorant. After reading this thread, it's clear to me that at least some white poppy wearers don't act on the principles they profess to believe in. They are a disparate bunch, no doubt, but a white poppy is highly ambivalent so it's not to anyone to say "you must see it like this". Some of its defenders on this thread have opinions which are deeply ignorant, deeply and embarrassingly so.

I have more respect for the girl than for the mum, in this case. I'm sure lots of us were like this as teenagers and jolly good too. But she's got the sense, and had it from the beginning, to know that her stand means she shouldn't attend. It was the mum trying to avoid trouble and please everyone that leads to this sort of mess.

Appletrees · 05/11/2010 09:58

See my just now post seeker.

And I would just repeat, "you started it" has never been a pacifist tenet.

"I was merely.." oh please

seeker · 05/11/2010 10:02

"it's clear to me that at least some white poppy wearers don't act on the principles they profess to believe in."

Elucidate.

Oh, and your comments on an adult calling oteenage girls "cunts" would be welcome too.

SkeletonFlowers · 05/11/2010 10:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Appletrees · 05/11/2010 10:09

I hate the word cunt, don't use it, don't like it, don't approve. Would you like to comment on posts that people only join the armed forces because they can't do anything else, that remembrance is little more than handwringing and grandstanding, that it's as funny as bottom wiping etc etc. Shall I assume you agree with everything you haven't commented on?

I have elucidated already Hmm rudeness, aggression, even you -- with your "you started it".. and the OP.."she's anti war so she won't wear a red poppy or go to the service.. if that's not saying the red poppy and the service are pro-war then what is?

noddyholder · 05/11/2010 10:12

I think it would be fine if that is what she believes it is a true representation of her and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.I don't wear a poppy of any colour and hate the pressure to stick somethin on my jacket to show support for something I am against.I would happily put money in a box and do but won't wear one.

Appletrees · 05/11/2010 10:13

Absolutely Skeleton: they know it will offend a lot of people at a horribly sensitive time but don't care. Just don't care. That's a provocative act. Not peace loving at all.

Appletrees · 05/11/2010 10:14

See? There's noddy thinking the red poppy is pro-war too. Are you white poppy wearers proud to be encouraging this?

noddyholder · 05/11/2010 10:19

I don't think its pro war but I don't want to wear one or do anything I don't want to.I think people who have made sacrifices for this country should be supported but I don't want to keep this sort of symbolism going

RitaLynn · 05/11/2010 10:19

Appletrees, do white poppy wearers have to defend everyone who doesn't wear a poppy such as noddy? I don't understand. And he didn't say he thought the red poppy was pro-war.

To be honest, I'm more offended by people who wear a red poppy, but during a world cup will be making anti-german jokes (like the two blokes who turned up to a game wearing WW2 RAF uniforms)

Appletrees · 05/11/2010 10:21

it shows support for something you are against

I'm guessing you are not against helping injuring servicemen and women

so what are you against that it is a symbol of

RitaLynn · 05/11/2010 10:22

But as noddy said, he doesn't wear a poppy of any colour. I'll be interested in what he has to say.

noddyholder · 05/11/2010 10:25

I am against war.I think servicemen who were called up should be respected for what they did within society but I think a lot of people do amazing things doctors teachers etc and I don't feel inclined to single out these men for special treatment by wearing something to say I am acknowledging them as 'more' deserving than others.

seeker · 05/11/2010 10:26

Many people do join the armed forces because it looks like an attractive job - particularly if there isn't much choice. That's why the Services recruiting in schools in disadvantaged areas. That's not new - it's always been true "Join the Army and learn a trade".

Remembrance Day has, sadly, for SOME (please note the use of the word some) people, particularly those in the public eye become a bit of a "look at me laying a wreath' - can't imagine a prime minister not doing it for example - he has less more choice in the matter than the OP's daughter. Apparently there is a box of poppies in the Green Room at Television Centre, so celebrities don't even have to buy one before they go on.

Harry Patch said it was "just showbusiness" - and who has more of a right to comment than him?

Missed the bottom wiping thing - but there was one mischevious poster who was rightly ignored by all sensible people. I assume it was one of her silly comments.

I focussed on the "cunt" comment because it was, without a doubt the most offensive post on this thread - and I would have expected all posters to unite in condemning it. And they didn't.

And finally - I don't think anyone - or only the most extreme would suggest that people should not wear red poppies. Just that white ones are also an option. "To remember all victims of war"