to get DD a white poppy to wear at a remembrance service?

[GallumDrawnAndQuartered]

She is 14 and has been selected by the school to represent her house at their service.

DD is vehemently pacifist and anti-war.

Rather than her get in trouble for refusing to go (which is what she is planning on doing) would it be unreasonable for her to go but to wear a white poppy instead of a red one?

Diddly, but a lot of the people did die pointlessly, that's part of the point of remembrance day.

edam/catholicatheist - no, you are wrong.

It is indeed a right and proper thing to die for one's country...not every time but in most cases, in my opinion.

People died in order for you to have the freedom to express your dislike of the manner of their dying.

edam Thu 04-Nov-10 15:05:55
Um, we weren't at war in 1920

Well look at you with yer yer facts!

Don't know where my brain was!!

No I agree you have to DEFEND your country from attack but I certainly dont think it is right to die (and it is not for your country) for the benefit of cheap oil and infrastructure deals or military presence in regions that we have no business to be in. .. all under this same delusional guise as it is right and prper to die for your country..the two are NOT comparable!

sumfingnew

I think that shows that people have very different views about what remembrance day is about, and there isn't one right answer, and highlights the validity of the white poppy.

For me, I don't think it is sweet and fitting to die for your country. Obviously, people have died fighting for freedom, which has involved fighting under the banner of a country's armed forces, but for me, WW1, WW2 were both huge wastes of life, and that's what I focus on.

There are some who do use remembrance day to glorify war and dying for your country.

----> Points to WingDad

What he said.

As the wife of a serving Army officer, I know a little about war and sacrifice. While I don't find the ideals behind the White poppy offensive per se and would not be offended by anyone wearing one, I would think it was a bit precious to wear one to a Remembrance Service.

The only analogy I can think of is how we all wear sombre clothing to a funeral out of respect to the dead and to their family (unless the fmaily requests otherwise, natch) and how I would think it disrespectful if someone turned up in a hot pink mini dress with bosom and legs on show. In a similar way, I would think it disrespectful to wear a white poppy to a Service, especially when one is representing the views of more than just oneself, as the OP's daughter is doing in this case.

I wear my red poppy with pride in remembrance of our friends who have died or been injured in current wars, for those who continue to wear their uniforms with pride and for all those who laid their lives on the line in previous combats.

Red Poppies are the symbol of the past - a past where the men (and women and countless families) had no choice, where even those who survived were left with scarring wounds and memories that lasted a lifetime.

They are a symbol of the present - all of the children and their children's children who learned the lessons of the previous generation's sometimes silent and very often misunderstood struggles, and the help that came from the red poppy has helped in so many different ways - from counselling, to providing funds for comfort in old age, to support for those who were tremendously wounded to go back to society. This red poppy has supported our grandparents to give them the strength to raise kids and their kids in turn.

It's also a symbol for the future, for continued work to regenerate lives which have been scarred by conflict which keeps us all safe.

A rememberance service is not the place for a white poppy. Although not offensive, it just goes against the whole feeling of the day - we go to remember, not contest a situation. A white poppy alongside a red poppy would be acceptable - a kind of acknowledgement of what has happened while saying 'never again'.

But a white one alone is just not right - especially given what the point of the service is.

So people who don't wear a poppy at all are not showing respect? So a person has to wear a badge to show what their feelings are or else they'll be condemned for not being respectful enough/patriotic enough? The term being used across the internet for that is "poppy fascism" - it is a very strong term and not one I would choose to use personally - but as people have repeatedly posted here, the white poppy was founded by widows and those connected with those who died: they didn't consider wearing one an insult. Red poppies connect with the Haig Fund - people aren't obliged to give to a charity if their own personal ethics are not in accord with its aims.

TBH I would ask them why they found it offensive.

I haven't got teenagers yet but I was one and I generally conclude they are all desperately seeking attention... otherwise why would they all insist on talking at a zillion decibels in public places.

Frankly, many teenagers would try to argue black was white if it meant being radical and different and they don't always know what they're talking about. For that reason I think you should try to make her recognise that loads of people died, really horribly, to allow her to grow up in the UK as it is today and that this subject isn't one where she should try to be political. She should be humble and dwell on the many sacrifices made in the past and the present by people who are trying to make a difference. If the general public are ever called up to fight then that's the time when she can be a conscientious objector.

I think you will make a rod for your own back (in terms of teenage wilfulness) if you don't try to reason with her on this and make her see sense.

I don't want to get into a debate on the rights/wrongs of the different poppies themselves, but I do think that in this instance it's all about context.

The white poppy isn't widely seen. Many people seem to have a vague beleif that it represents anti-war/anti-military sentiment. Many people don't know it's history or philosophy.

The likelihood is that many people at the Rememberance service will fall into this category and be offended, all the more so if they have/had friends or relatives who have died or been injured in wartime. It's very likely her reasons will be misunderstood.

For this reason alone I'd say to your daughter not to go. By all means, wear a white poppy on the 11th November or at any other time of the year. Good on her for having beleifs. But at a Rememberance Service itself, no.

If people are stupid or lazy enough to take offence at something they don't understand and haven't bothered to find out about, then they deserve to be offended, frankly.

look at this page for history behind why we wear red poppies

I have not read through all of the posts on this board, but I am quite saddened by some of the things I have read. I wear my Poppy with pride, to remember those who died so we have freedom, all those who died, in all wars past and present.

'I think that it is fabulous that you live in a country where you can allow your 14 year old to choose the colour of her poppy...

A very good point. I have just read 'Alone in Berlin' by Hans Fallada about life for the ordinary person in Nazi Germany and a 14yr old making a political point would risk the entire family being deported to a concentration camp. Simple post cards expressing the opinion that sons should not be slaughtered as part of the war machine ended in torture and death.
My great uncle died when he was 90yrs but he had wounds from the first world war-he was a much loved 18yr old when he was 'sent off to hell' and he was a very gentle person-I think that he would have called himself a pacifist. (His brother didn't get back).
I think that the DD should study it a lot more before she makes a stand and if she isn't willing to spend the time she should just ask to be excused.
I don't know much about white poppies at all, except that I would most likely have to go on line to get one (thanks to this thread) but they seem offensive to many-which is a good reason to think that it isn't an appropriate time to wear one.

Why is the argument always "but they died for your freedom!"? That is not only a shaky point in itself, it also has nothing to do with the matter in hand. We are remembering those who have died, and that is all. How they died, why they died, none of that matters - we just need to remember that they existed.

I always honour the silence on Rememberance Day, as of course it's sad that these people have died for no reason, but taking offence at poppies is ridiculous.
I agree totally with edam - if you get offended at something you don't even fully understand, then the only person offending you is you and your own ignorance.

The colour of poppy you wear affects nobody but yourself - it is a personal choice of how to express your regret and rememberance. Honestly, anyone saying that wearing a white poppy is offensive/attention seeking needs to get over themselves

They died for the rights of people to wear whatever poppy they liked-without getting shot! I call that freedom!

The good thing about our country is the freedom to say what you like. Even if OP's DD decides to use the occasion to make her point nothing much will happen-most people will think she is merely young and misguided.
I

If I was at that service I would think 'precocious brat'....not saying OP's daughter is one but that is what I would assume with such an action.

re : ladythumb .. these people died to give her freedom .. EXACTLY . she has freedom to peacefully state her views . and the fact that she is exercising her right to use the freedom they died for should be respected .

let the girl make up her own mind . if you try to suppress someones beliefs or opinions , youre really just being demanding , selfish & blinkered .

i think dandy dan hit the nail right on the head . spot on dan .

Appletrees: I have done a lesson on that before, looking at Jessie Pope. I would never push my politics on the kids, but if push came to shove I would choose a 'real' war poet like Owen over, for example, Rupert Brooke - Owen knew what he was talking about, because he was there. I'm afraid a more jingoistic poet would not hold up against Owen or Sassoon (Dulce et Decorum Est containing, as it does, a reference to pro-war jingoism by Jessie Pope).

I don't understand how 'uncomfortable' is weasel word. I'm not comfortable with it. It doesn't drive me into a raging fury - it just makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. I don't know how else to express it, and I have a feeling your reaction would have been similar whatever I had said.

UnseenAcademicalMum: I don't think I said anything about not wanting to remember (in fact I explicitly stated that I am in favour of rememberance and I think it's hugely important) - in fact, what you've said is exactly the reason I wear a white poppy. Did you read my post properly?

My 19 year old brother actually IS joining the army and might well be sent to Iraq. If, God forbid, he were to be hurt there, I would still wear a white poppy - and probably a bigger one than I wear now (needless to say whenever I think of him joining up I feel sick to my stomach, but the boy wants to be a soldier).

Oh and btw WingDad, my brother is no patriot and is joining the army because he needs a job. I'm sure he's not the only one.

SkeletonFlowers: Ooh Maggie Thatcher thinks it then it must be right, since she was such an upstanding moral person.

I would be heartbroken if I attended a remembrance service having recently lost someone close (which as an aside I have) only to find someone protesting against war. Any other day of the year but not that one - not with the current mess that our service men and women are dealing with.

Sullwah and Casserole have a really good point - she should consider stepping down from representing her house - in that way she will have quietly made her point about what she believes in without drawing any negative attention to herself.