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Original poster

to get DD a white poppy to wear at a remembrance service?

960 replies

GallumDrawnAndQuartered · 03/11/2010 16:23

She is 14 and has been selected by the school to represent her house at their service.

DD is vehemently pacifist and anti-war.

Rather than her get in trouble for refusing to go (which is what she is planning on doing) would it be unreasonable for her to go but to wear a white poppy instead of a red one?

OP posts:
LookToWindward · 04/11/2010 13:55

"I don't think people are ignoring your point, I know in my case, I just happen to disagree"

That's fine - but all you're doing is saying "you're wrong and I'm right".

I've explained in quite some detail my views and the reasoning and logic behind them. If you consider "no it's not" a reasoned reply then good for you but I'm not repeating myself any further.

And I'm not a nice person to people who deliberately go out of their way to upset and offend people in order to make a political point. Be they stupid teenagers or adults.

And while some services may include a religious note by virtue that they're usually on a Sunday and usually headed by a member of the local church the act of remembrance itself is decidedly a secular one - as you'll see if watch the service next Sunday.

seeker · 04/11/2010 14:01

LookToWindward - why are you ignoring my point that the white poppy was devised as a symbol of remembrance by the widows and mothers of soldiers who dies in WW1?

SumfingNew · 04/11/2010 14:05

I find it hard not to see the white poppies as provocative but am not yet clear in my own mind as to why that is.

I think it must be something to do with a line of argument that goes something like this:

  1. Red poppies indicate sympathy/thanks/remembrance for those that died in war.
  1. Such emotions might be interpreted by some as supporting wars per se.
  1. I don't like war.
  1. I must come up with some way of reassuring people that I don't like war.
  1. The white poppy is for me.

I think the flaw in the argument is in in the second premise. Plus the fourth one just grates a tad.

LookToWindward · 04/11/2010 14:07

I don't have a problem with the white poppy (well, I have a distaste for them for reasons explained earlier but there are far worse things out there).

I'm not sure what you want me to say?

RitaLynn · 04/11/2010 14:10

I'll leave this here as well. I don't think your analogies and logic hold up to scrutiny, and you're assuming people with white poppies are setting out to offend people. You don't know their motives, but are happy to call people you disagree with c**ts.

Good luck to the OP's daughter, it's obviously good that she's thinking about these issues, and that really is one of the major points of remembrance day.

thumbwheel · 04/11/2010 14:11

for those who doubt that anyone would be offended by white poppies - it might be Canada but it's still relevant.

seeker · 04/11/2010 14:12

You don;'t have a problem with the white poppy - but people - like my the OP's daughter and mine and me - who wear one are c**ts.

LookToWindward · 04/11/2010 14:12

It boils down to this: you don't think the white poppy is a political statement. I - and the website of the organisation that produces white poppies - do.

LookToWindward · 04/11/2010 14:15

"You don;'t have a problem with the white poppy - but people - like my the OP's daughter and mine and me - who wear one are c**ts."

See - you're either not reading or not understanding. Comprehension not your strong point I take it?

My objection is to wearing an overtly political symbol at an apolitical event in order to make a statement.

GothAnneGeddes · 04/11/2010 14:17

I'm sorry but these anti-white poppy folks sound like they are looking to get offended.

The white poppy is a symbol of remembrance, so why shouldn't it be worn at a remembrance service.

People want to remember the dead,, but have different attitudes towards war. What on earth is so offensive about that?

piscesmoon · 04/11/2010 14:18

I have been all around my local town this morning and looked out especially. I have not seen a single person wearing a white poppy and I haven't seen any for sale. I could have got a red poppy in any one of a dozen places and lots of people were wearing them. I can't recall ever seeing anyone wearing a white poppy. Am I just sheltered? Are there white poppy areas in the country? Would I have to go to London? Just curious. I only know about them because I have read about them.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 04/11/2010 14:18

If white poppies are a political statement because they say "no more war", then so are red ones - haven't we been told a hundred times on this thread that the red poppy says the same thing, including by Wingdad the most important person on the thread?

"The poppy symbolises that we will never forget the sacrifices that were made, and will always educate our young so that no more tragedies can occur on such a scale."

PosieComeHereMyPreciousParker · 04/11/2010 14:20

I think war veterans and their families would be offended that a fourteen year old child would put her feelings above theirs.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 04/11/2010 14:21

Pisces - they are really unusual IME. I had to order some online a couple of years ago. Most quaker shops - that sounds weird but that's what they are! - sell them.

WingDad · 04/11/2010 14:23

Just to defend myself here...

I didn't read all 17 pages of the thread because I was very tired at the time (I'm currently training gunners in preparation for duty in Afghanistan, if anyone's interested), so I reached about page 10 of reading every post then just started reading the odd post there onwards to page 17, I didn't just skip straight to the last page to voice my opinion. I take offence to you implying that I think a woman's opinion is inferior to my own, 'cos that's just wrong and it's upsetting that you jumped to that conclusion. Shame on you.

Quite frankly you can do whatever the fuck you want throughout the year, but maybe it would be nice just to stop and remember the people who died in order to let you do whatever you want. There's never been anything political about Remembrance, because it's just in the name; we remember those who put their lives on the line.

If you want to bring politics into a time when we thank the war dead, then you can fucking stay at home for all I care.

thumbwheel · 04/11/2010 14:24

does this help to explain? The money given to the RBL for the Poppy Appeal is used to help servicemen, women and their families - something that is entirely necessary as the Govt don't seem able or willing to shoulder the burden. Money for the white poppies doesn't go to support people who have fought and/or lost loved ones in the service and protection of their country. It goes to an idealistic organisation that is never going to achieve its ends (well, highly unlikely to, anyway). Yes it might be another form of remembrance but it is not a practical aid to people who are suffering as a consequence of wars that they had no power to control. Perhaps they shouldn't have joined the Armed Services - but then where would we be if no one did?

LookToWindward · 04/11/2010 14:25

"There's never been anything political about Remembrance, because it's just in the name; we remember those who put their lives on the line.

If you want to bring politics into a time when we thank the war dead, then you can fucking stay at home for all I care."

.

WingDad · 04/11/2010 14:26

And just to add, I don't think my opinion is superior just because I'm currently serving. It's correct that I've gone out on duty in foreign countries, but I don't believe that makes me superior.

SumfingNew · 04/11/2010 14:26

GothAnneGeddes - "I'm sorry but these anti-white poppy folks sound like they are looking to get offended."

Hilarious.

It's the white poppy folks that are looking to make a point!

Chil1234 · 04/11/2010 14:27

Is it worth pointing out that many conscientious objectors played valid roles in the last wars, often as medics or bomb disposal experts? There are more constructive ways to express objection to war than to offend people

ZZZenAgain · 04/11/2010 14:28

sorry haven't read the thread just the OP and the last page, so maybe missing a lot but why can OP dd not just say as a pacifist she is uncomfortable representing her school and let the school send someone else in her place?

WingDad · 04/11/2010 14:30

Windward, I dunno if you're in support of my comment or not...

But I'd like to add (sorry, thoughts all over the place at the moment), the Poppy Appeal is separate to Remembrance. You don't have to support where the money from the RBL goes in order to turn up on the day to a ceremony.

Although I'd like to think people would want to support anyone who's lives have been ruined by war, which is what the RBL does, I appreciate some people don't fully appreciate this so I'm not going to go into that too much because it's fighting a pointless battle.

seeker · 04/11/2010 14:31

"maybe it would be nice just to stop and remember the people who died in order to let you do whatever you want. "

Yes. And that's what white poppy wearers are doing. That's why they wear white poppies. That's why the white poppy campaign started. What do you think we are thinking about, for fuck's sake?

thumbwheel · 04/11/2010 14:33

WingDad - is it fighting a pointless battle though? Isn't that the thing, that some people don't realise what the money is used for, and why? Isn't that one of the things that should be highlighted more?

choxanwine · 04/11/2010 14:33

All right-thinking people are pacifist and anti-war and of course there are better ways of resolving conflict - however, it's when all the better ways fail then the last resort is to defend yourself and your country and allies and not appease aggressors who mean you harm. My children (15 and 17) appreciate and understand the sacrifices their grandparents and greatgrandparents made. They were the most gentle people but were prepared to do what was necessary (sometimes not through choice). Just because you are prepared to defend yourself, or you benefit from those who do, doesn't mean you glorify war. We need to teach our children to recognise the difference and if wearing a red poppy demonstrates our debt of gratitude then that is surely the least we can do.