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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to get DD a white poppy to wear at a remembrance service?

960 replies

GallumDrawnAndQuartered · 03/11/2010 16:23

She is 14 and has been selected by the school to represent her house at their service.

DD is vehemently pacifist and anti-war.

Rather than her get in trouble for refusing to go (which is what she is planning on doing) would it be unreasonable for her to go but to wear a white poppy instead of a red one?

OP posts:
ElephantsAndMiasmas · 04/11/2010 12:36

I am aghast at the idea that people at a service of remembrance will be so angry and upset with a teenage girl for expressing her respectful feelings about the tragedy of war.

Maybe it's not the symbol they choose, but it's a different form of it, it's not violent or offensive, it's peaceful. The idea of a load of people getting all angry-eyes at someone wearing a peace message is just :(

SumfingNew · 04/11/2010 12:48

ElephantsAndMiasmas - I disagree. The girl in question is going to wear this white poppy as a deliberately provocative act - i.e. she is making a statement whose meaning is intentionally different from that of the red poppy.

She should therefore be prepared for people's responses. Her right to wear a white poppy if she wishes - other people's right to respond.

emmie31 · 04/11/2010 12:49

I agree with Sullwah, If she feels that strongly about it and everybody has a right to an opinion then she should stand down and let another child represent her house. It sounds as if the school are treating this as an honour to represent the house (as it should be) so I dont think she should be doing it... hope that came out alright ..I also feel that if my Grandmother was there she would be most offended, her brother got shot down in the war like many others and these were teenagers that most likely didn't want to go to war at all.

LookToWindward · 04/11/2010 12:50

Just because you do not consider it offensive does not mean that the majority of people at a service won't.

To use a simple analogy, it's like wandering around Brazil and using the "A-Ok" hand gesture despite knowing what it means in South America (arsehole in case you don't know). You might not consider it offensive but the majority of Brazilians will.

You might consider it a friendly gesture of appreciation, everyone else will consider it an insult.

RitaLynn · 04/11/2010 12:51

SumfingNew, the white poppy seems to very much in accordance with what the red poppy is supposed to be about. It's not provocative in the slightest.

RitaLynn · 04/11/2010 12:53

Could someone explain how the white poppy is offensive?

pooka · 04/11/2010 12:53

YABU. Shockingly offensive to attempt to score ideological point by hijacking the remembrance service.

It is not a celebration of war but a service to remember those that were killed in wars - all wars.

LookToWindward · 04/11/2010 12:58

"Could someone explain how the white poppy is offensive?"

I'm going to be charitable and assume you're not being obtuse and point you at the previous 19 pages of posts.

RitaLynn · 04/11/2010 13:01

No, the basic message of the white poppy is that "there are better ways to resolve conflicts than killing strangers" (direct quote)

That's an incredibly unoffensive message.

seeker · 04/11/2010 13:03

The think is - the previous 19 - or however many pages - of comments are mostly ill thought out knee jerk reactions from people who have no idea what the white poppy symbolizes.

So pointing someone there to explain why the white poppy, which is both a symbol of remembrance and also a gesture of hope for the future could possibly be offensive to anyoen who thinks for 5 minutees is not particularly helpful.

Trilobiteontoast · 04/11/2010 13:04

I think she should wear whichever she feels most closely represents her beliefs. I'm a bit shocked that so many people claiming to support military sacrifices are so against freedom of expression- I don't know what you think people fought for in WW2, but I'm pretty sure my Grandad was fighting for the freedom of people to disagree with majority views/policies without being persecuted for that, actually... Wearing a white poppy is not offensive to people who genuinely value freedom of expression and democratic differences in opinion.

MaMoTTaT · 04/11/2010 13:07

"The White Poppy symbolises the belief that there are better ways to resolve conflicts than killing strangers"

That is taken from the white poppy website itself (if you google white poppy that's what shows under the link).

The PPU's initial pledge (for membership) was

" 'renounce war and never again to support another'."

it has apparently changed through the years slightly (thought can't find reference to it anywhere) but for many I can easily see that it would translate to "not supporting the people who fought"

Though I suppose a white poppy is better than their "war toys are silly" badge Hmm

I'm also struggling to see what exactly the PPU have done/achieved in their 75yrs of history.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 04/11/2010 13:07

Rita - from what I can gather it is offensive because (depending on poster):

  • everyone should wear the red poppy at a remembrance service, no buts
  • white poppies are criticising the people who died in wars for being silly enough to go to war in the first place
  • relatives of dead servicepeople might be there and see it, and automatically take it as an offence (not sure why)
  • white poppies do not raise money for the British Legion (not sure how this works if e.g. someone has a white poppy that they wear every year - they are fabric after all, but puts money in BL pot without taking poppy) /white poppies raise money for "propaganda"
  • white poppies are a political statement, while the red one is neutral

-white poppies don't say anything different to red poppies, they are just for the attention seeking to make them stand out

  • you shouldn't wear a white poppy, because it's disrespectful to the people who died to allow you to wear a white poppy if you want to.
MaMoTTaT · 04/11/2010 13:10

Trilobe - I don't care if people wear a white poppy 364 days of the year - but there is a time and place to say "actually we don't support war at all" than in the face of those who have gone to a service to remember those who have died.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 04/11/2010 13:11

MaMM - I don't think the people who fought actually liked war though did they? They might have been against war themselves. I'm sure a lot of WWI soldiers felt incredibly betrayed when they realised they were being used as cannon fodder for no discernible gain.

Trilobite - I know. Reminds me of the old people I remember who would talk about how they fought Hitler and the next minute be slagging off Jews/ethnic minorities/gay people. Hmm

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 04/11/2010 13:12

War is not the same as "the people who have died in war".

Arson is not the same as firefighters.

seeker · 04/11/2010 13:13

But the whole point of the white poppies is that war widows and the mothers of soldiers who had dies in WW1 wanted osmething to wear as a symbol rememberance that wasn't connected with Haig.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 04/11/2010 13:13

So when should we have white poppy day? And which of the people who oppose white poppies on remembrance day would support it?

LookToWindward · 04/11/2010 13:21

One last time:

The white poppy is a political statement regards the nature and causes of conflict - by the websites own definition.

That is fine but an remembrance service is not the place to start scoring political points. It is exactly the same as waving a CND or Free Palestine placard about - not in itself a bad thing but a remembrance service is the wrong time and the wrong place to do so.

I'm going round in circles - this is about the fifth time I've posted this and people are either ignoring it or just flat out making stuff up and attributing it to me.

So, by all means wear your white poppy next Sunday if that's what you wish to do but be aware that by doing so you will - deliberately and wilfully - be offending an awful lot of people. And in my book that makes you a cunt.

seeker · 04/11/2010 13:23

How do you know that real war veterans would be offended? And where do you get off calling 14 year old girls c**ts?

MaMoTTaT · 04/11/2010 13:25

you could pick any day of the year - as has been pointed out wars have continued to rage throughout the last century and into this one.

Would I wear one - probably not - as I wouldn't take one without donating money - and if I'm donating money I want to see it "doing" something.

PosieComeHereMyPreciousParker · 04/11/2010 13:28

I think that at fourteen she sounds entirely age appropriate in her reactions and beliefs. She is still a child by the sound of it that is more concerned with how she is perceived than causing offence and therefore as the parent OP you need to give her the right guidance which is to wear a red poppy.

thumbwheel · 04/11/2010 13:32

Can she not just ask for someone else to go in her place as it's against her principles to have anything to do with it?

I understand the white poppy thing but I do agree that it is a political statement that has no place at a Service of Remembrance, which is about respect for the fallen servicemen and women.

PosieComeHereMyPreciousParker · 04/11/2010 13:34

Why can't a pacifist give thanks to those that gave their lives for their freedom....she's not being asked to go on a 'let's invade' march?

RitaLynn · 04/11/2010 13:39

LooktoWindward,

I don't think people are ignoring your point, I know in my case, I just happen to disagree

Remembrance day is not equivalent to a funeral (as you've stated earlier). The white poppy is not equivalent to waving a CND banner. It says something about a person's beliefs, but a remembrance service is fine for that (I'm sure prayers will be said for example, that's not point scoring).

PS You're openly stating you're not a very nice person with your continual reference to the c-word, that's fair enough, it's your right not to be a very nice person.