to get DD a white poppy to wear at a remembrance service?

[GallumDrawnAndQuartered]

She is 14 and has been selected by the school to represent her house at their service.

DD is vehemently pacifist and anti-war.

Rather than her get in trouble for refusing to go (which is what she is planning on doing) would it be unreasonable for her to go but to wear a white poppy instead of a red one?

sorry - that was a typo - should be hasn't read all of it

MaMM - I think for many of the people who have died that is true. Not nice, but true.

of course you don't need to wear a poppy to attend. But if you're going to wear one I think it should be the one that is used to represent remembering of the fallen not one that says there are better ways to do things.

I suppose I see it a bit like going to the funeral of someone that's died because they did something reckless - and saying to the family - hey I'm so sorry they died, but you know if he hadn't done xyz he'd still be with us"

Wrong time, wrong place.

I can see that that would be wrong, MaMM! The difference is that specifically in the case of the armed forces, they are not the ones making the decision to do something reckless.

To wheel out another analogy, I see it less like giving a lecture about condom wearing at the funeral of someone who's died of AIDS, and more like having a collection to raise money for research into a cure for the disease.

right - so if the armed forces aren't the ones to be doing things the wrong way (going to war instead of using peaceful means) why shove the "there's better ways to do it" in their faces on the one day in the year set aside to remember those that have died?

"To wheel out another analogy, I see it less like giving a lecture about condom wearing at the funeral of someone who's died of AIDS, and more like having a collection to raise money for research into a cure for the disease."

And that's the point, you might see it as having a collection. Everyone else will see it as the full blown sermon on the evils of homosexuality (to stretch an already silly analogy).

Yes, pretty much what everyone else had said.

This is not about the legality of the Iraq war, about nuclear warfare, about British foreign policy, it is a day of remembrance. It is worth reminding your DD (as I think you have) that the reason she has the freedom of making these choices is because many, many men and women, many not much older than her, died for this freedom. That they fought for this freedom knowing that it was likely they would never see their mums, their dads, their brothers, their sisters or their friends ever again. That they died alone in pain and suffering in foreign fields, many in graves that will never be marked. And that they did this not for themselves but so that people they would never know, in generations to come, like your daughter, would have this freedom.

This one day is to remember them and their personal sacrifice, not to opine on war or state your personal views. If you don?t like it, you should gracefully bow out (as the DD wants to). She may get in trouble, and I may not agree with her views, but that is her choice. And incidentally, if there?s not a better way to be reminded of all the suffering and death which war causes than the red poppy itself, I don?t know what is.

"Have any of the posters who insist the white poppy is an insult to the fallen actually read the posts explaining how many people who actually served in WW1 and WW2 detested the whole industry of 'Remembrance'?

Some people who were there or served at home supported Rembrance Sunday and poppies. Some hated it. There were an awful lot of people involved in the World Wars, by definition. No-one speaks for all of them. "

No.. but I think we can safely assume that those who are at the remembrance service are the ones who are support it.

I think an illness is quite different to an actual "act" that leads to death.

Obviously in the case of AIDS it could have been avoided - but not always the case. And often has nothing at all to do with homosexuality.

Illnesses, by and large, are generally unavoidable in the grand scheme of things. You generally don't get a choice of getting ill or not.

You do have a "choice" over many other matters which can lead to death.

The White Poppy symbolises a "different" choice that could have been made. I don't have a problem with its sentiments, but to wear it on a day remembering those who had already made the choice (although as you point out most didn't have a choice - they were conscripted) just seems wrong to me.

There are another 364 days in the year to wear the poppy and spread it's (good) message.

"Obviously in the case of AIDS it could have been avoided - but not always the case. And often has nothing at all to do with homosexuality."

Just to make absolutely clear here - I'm not suggesting a relationship between HIV and sexual orientation.

What I am curious about is what different choice people think could have been made in terms of WWII? The words rock and very, very hard place spring to mind. For a civilised resolution to be reached, both parties have to be obeying the rules of norma civilised nations. Hitler wasn't playing by those rules.

I don't know about other people, kungfu, but to me WWII is one war out of literally thousands fought in the 20th century, let alone previous centuries and currently. It is IMHO an extremely rare example of a time when it is right to fight. But the fact that WWII happened doesn't justify any other war before or since.

The trouble is, we are constantly having films/books/TV/debate about WWII, and almost nothing about the others. This is IMHO (again) because it is the only really clear example of a war where Britain had right on its side and a clear need to act.

LooktoWindward - I would say that if the mourners viewed it like that then they would be very odd. Surely everyone wants to remedy something that kills people? Glad to hear you weren't trying to imply that about gay people - was completely

I think a lot of people on this thread have mixed up supporting the BL with being respectful to those who died. Feeling respect / sorrow at the lost of lives is entirely unrelated to wearing or not wearing any poppy and can be felt by anyone. Wearing a red poppy is showing support for the BL which is a charity whose aims and objectives you could easily disagree with without feeling any less respect for those who died in past wars. For example, I'm uncomfortable with what I see as the BL serving itself. Why does it not make better use of its political power to ensure that soldiers and their families are supported by the government, and then gradually wind down to a charity providing just emotional support? That in itself isn't enough to make me stop wearing a poppy, but I could see how it could be for others.

Also, as ElephantsAndMiasma said, the only war where we are confident we were on the "right" side is WWII. So saying we should support the BL in supporting soldiers who protect our freedom is not entirely true. Most of the soldiers supported by the BL today were professionals who were actually not protecting the UK. It is perfectly possible to not want to support professional soldiers from recent wars, while still respecting those whose lives were destroyed fighting for our freedom.

So, in conclusion, OP I think a white poppy is probably a good compromise for your dd as the poppy shape represents respecting soldiers who fought for our freedom, while the charity who benefits does not support professional soldiers.

I'm really struggling to see how a white poppy could be offensive.

I don't wear one, but it says we remember the fallen, and we think there are better ways to resolve conflicts - I'm sure a lot who died would agree. It's in no way similar to waving a CND placard around.

If anything, it's akin to what remembrance day should be about. Too many people do glorify war, but wear their poppy with pride.

To be honest, I think the whole poppy thing (apart from the money that goes to veterans) for so many is a superficial statement. How many people read of the history for example, think of the forces that led to WW1 and WW2, etc?

"As Wingdad is a serving member of the armed forces I'd say his opinion is rather more important than everyone else posting on this thread" Why? Was he there in 1916 on the Somme? I find this attitude disturbing.

Rhinestone ..no of course Saudi is not threat. But as I said before to someone else we have to remember who put the Taliban in power in Afghanistan in the same way we have to think about who put Sadam in power. The USA were happy to train up the Taliban when they were fighting communists..the Taliban fought then as allies. Also the Taliban is not the threat (other than to their own people) surely the threat is Al Qaeda? And the terrorist threat comes from all countries but mostly Pakistan and Saudi. Please dont be so naive to think that war is about the 'threat'.

Sorry people I know this post is somewhat off topic but I had to make that point for the sake of clarity from earlier.

"As Wingdad is a serving member of the armed forces I'd say his opinion is rather more important than everyone else posting on this thread" Why? Was he there in 1916 on the Somme? I find this attitude disturbing..

me too very disturbing. Personally I would think it made his opinion incredibly biased and subjective if anything!

1. Wingdad has stood up and put his life on the line for something he believes in. Whether you or I agree with that belief is neither here nor there. In the rarefied air of mumsnet where the greatest hardship that most posters will ever face is a lost Boden catalogue or missing out on the last P&C parking space, to actually put your life on the line for you beliefs commands respect.

And I say that of anyone - regardless of "side", nationality or belief - that does so.

If chose not to understand that then frankly that is your loss.

1. If you don't understand why the poppy is a political statement which doesn't belong at what is essential a funeral then again that is fine and your outlook. However be aware that for a great many people it will cause a great deal of offence and upset. You should be aware of that and reaction it will cause - even if you chose to ignore it or pretend it doesn't exist.

"...why the white poppy is a political statement..."

Oh for an edit button.

And the red poppy isn't a political statement exactly how?

You just try being any public figure not wearing one and see how you get on.

And the argument that only people with direct personal experience of something are entitled to an opinion on it is, qute simply, bonkers.

I'm not criticising a member of the armed forces here for what the do, merely the idea that their views on remembrance might be superior than someone else's views.

We all know the armed forces is a mixed bag, those are there through great humanitarian urges, or at the other end, a love of violence and guns, who knows. (I know people in the armed forces, who went in with very different motiviations).

I don't agree that the remembrance events are equivalent to a funeral, they're for the nation to come together to think about the service of people who died, but also to think about war and for some, that includes thinking about its futility. Wearing a white poppy seems a very reasonable thing to do.

I can't imagine anyone who actually served in a war would be upset by a white poppy.

It sounds as if the OP's daughter is thinking about these issues, and she should be very proud.

What is far, far more offensive is the hypocrisy of those who wear their poppies for one day (or a week a year), but don't think about the reasons for war.

Surely the lesson of WW1 was that it was a futile conflict.

Well I guess its political in the same way that Michael Foot wearing a donkey jacket to a remembrance service is a political in that people will always look for a meaning in everything, but political by way of a cause or goal or view? No - no more than any funeral would be. Unlike the white poppy, it doesn't signify a cause, a belief, a loyalty or allegiance. Its a token of respect.

"And the argument that only people with direct personal experience of something are entitled to an opinion on it is, qute simply, bonkers."

Strawman. Never said nor implied that. If you're going to enter into a debate please don't make stuff up and attribute it to me.

Wrong place, wrong time.

No-one at your daughters Service of Remembrance will care that a 14 year old girl is 'pacifist and ani-war'. They will care that a 14 year old girl was disrespectful enough to 'make a stand' at a Service of Remembrance for our fallen troops. They will care that her parents did not care enough about the feelings of others, and did not advise her against it.

People who have chosen to attend a Service of Remembrance are there because they want to be, are there to remember and honour the fallen, are there because they believe in the Service, and wear their red poppies with pride.

If your daughter wants to make a difference, wants to make a stand, get her to do something more appropriate, get her to write to her MP, join the PPU, picket the Houses of Parliament - anything - just dont upset those that are there to remember.

No-one at your daughters service will be in a position of 'power', government or otherwise, no-one there would be able to make a difference to our foreign or Armed Forces policies - so why make a stand there?

Unless she is attention seeking...?

"Shoulder to shoulder with those who Serve"

By the way, it was never a donkey jacket. The Queen Mum later told him how smart he looked

At least a kid wearing a white poppy has clearly thought it over, not just done it because everyone else is.

Elephant, I think that's my view, OP's daughter is actually thinking about these issues, that's far more important that any poppy