AIBU to dare to suggest that children are better off NOT in nursery til 3?

[WeakAndMilky]

AIBU to NOT buy into the belief that exposing toddlers to every bug going is good for their immune system? Nurseries are terrible places for bugs and so many DCs spend half their time with D&V, colds, fevers, rashes etc. If you want an example of the 'constant cough/cold syndrome' look on Childrens Health!

True some parents have no choice and children do need to see other children. But they dont do much interactive play before the age of 3 and their immune system has plenty of time to build with more limited contact with other kids and adults.

My own DCs went only to playgroup weekly before school started, and they didnt collapse under the bombardment of viruses when they did go, just the usual minor stuff. My DD never had an antibiotic til she was a teenager!

Please dont bang on about having no choice due to work (you obviously don't have a choice) but there are plenty of mums who do have the choice and choose to send babies and toddlers to nursery.

Boffinmum. On what basis do you think I am not a nurse? I find that grossly insulting as I've spent most of my adult life caring for sick people in a variety of settings. I would not dream of personally insulting someone on the basis of their beliefs. Type 1 diabetes (I'm assuming you dont mean type 2 diabetes, or diabetes insipidus), lymphoblastic leukemia (as opposed to acute myloblastic leukemia) are comparatively rare compared to colds/coughs etc. Asthma (acute/chronic/brittle) is common but has a firm genetic and environmental (atmospheric pollution) link.

YABU

I've had one in nursery from age 1 and the other not until age 3. Working or not I feel that the one who didn't go until 3 has missed out. Playgroup and toddlers doesn't make up for the sctivities/interaction they get at nursery.

And my toddler at nursery hardly had any colds either.

Unless you have experience both ways are you really fit to judge here?

Weak and milky, you do protest too much.

ballstoit that is such a very good point. If the judgy arses who give out about children going to nursery / being picky eaters / drinking fruit shoots gave as much of a shit about kids who live in abject poverty and face actual danger on a daily basis, maybe that would be better use of their apparent expertise and superior parenting knowledge.

Excellent Posie, and so were mine.

Just off to remove my name from the NMC register then as I'm no longer a nurse. It'll save me £70 or so for doing bugger all except stick my name on their poxy register!

heh heh heh

you say AIBU

we mostly say yes

so you take your ball back

you haven't called us a nest of vipers/bunch of bitches yet

[disappointed]

Hurrah for barristermum who pointed out, as I was going to, that weakandmilky's belief that 'so many' children who go to nurseries are going to fall ill with one bug after another is based on faulty anecdotal data because she only sees the children that are ill - not the ones who are healthy!!

And whilst Boffinmum's links do use the words 'appeared', 'less likely' and 'appeared to confer' - but these studies are based on proper research rather than assumptions based on a (kind of) self-selecting group - ie the poorly children.

Quite.
Subjectively opinionated even by MN standards.

Which is better:

A few colds, transient in nature, which your kids would only get at school if they didn't get them at nursery anyway

or

Getting a comparatively rare but potentially fatal disease

I think that's rather like the argument we use to encourage vaccination, namely a bit of discomfort up front pays dividends in avoiding more serious diseases later.

Weakandmilky I presume as part of your medical training you studied immunology and are aware of the different types of immunity and how they are acquired?

Perhaps you trained a while ago. You may want to refresh yourself on the relevant chapters. I have many textbooks I could send you if you would like?

When you've finished, if you could point us all in the direction of the "optimum gap between children" studies, that would be grand.

Until then, please do bog off and stop upsetting people with your ill thought out nonsense.

xposts

I like proper studies and big samples, me, not reports from some bint who sits in one GP's surgery all day seeing what she wants to see.

i have choice-chose to work and use nursery from 6mth fulltime for all my dc.had nursery place booked 12wk pg

i love working it helps define me,gives me vocational satisfaction and approbation.i could never get that being sahm

But SM, what about all those precious moments you miss

WeakandMilky - your sample is skewed

Boffin. The leukemia study stressed the level of interaction between young children, I never said children should live in a bubble!

No cass. I obviously havent a clue about immunity. Duh... I've just removed myself from the NMC register.

Never been called a bint before

staff tel me all about finger paint,heurestic play etc thad what i pay em for

Jamie. My sample is not skewed. Boffinmum says in her research article that children in nursery (BMJ quoted) that children do get more minor illnesses!

Oh OK

thankfully many doctors/hcp/teachers do work amd public benefits from their continued input.and the parents maintain cpd,clinical skills and salary. so everyone wins

No - boffinmum says rthat children are more protected against (more than minor) illnesses: avery different thing.

You really haven't understood the point that was being made - or are you being deliberately obtuse?

this thread makes no sense to me
is she attacking nurseries, those who work or people with weaking children

anyway its balls

The papers I cited all refer to daycare, if you look.

I stand by calling you a bint, as professionals need to be very sure of their scientific grounds for saying things in public before spouting off. As a professional nurse you mediate between the private citizen and the medical profession (in this case) and it is a very great responsibility. So making spurious arguments on here (or in your workplace) grounded in nothing but your own subjective views, without doing the right homework or reading is unhelpful at best and dangerous at worst. Here you got a lot of mums stressed, fretting and self-justifying, when it could just as easily be argued from the literature that if their children attend good nurseries they are getting useful health and educational benefits.

I could say all sorts of things about education but many people on here know what I do for a living, so I am careful to distinguish between what I really 'know' and what I 'might know'; what I am 'unsure about' and what I definitely 'don't know'. That is crucial.

You would have been taken more seriously if you argued that, given many children get these bugs during their early years anyway, mothers need to take this into account when their children are starting new nurseries or schools, as it may impact on their working lives and stress levels until their kids have built up a decent level of herd immunity. And that employers could be a bit more understanding in such circumstances. Then people would have felt less got at.

End of lecture.

So what do we know from the educational and medical research? I have not checked the exact references for all of these today, but from my recent reading I am pretty confident that ...

We know that children have wider friendship groups if they attend good nurseries, and this ability to make friends stays with them throughout school. (Scandinavian study)

We know that attending good nurseries from the age of two for children in lower socio-economic groups in associated with improved educational and health outcomes in the medium to long term. There is also a benefit for other children, but less marked the higher up the social ladder you go. (US studies)

We know that children run the risk of picking up more upper respiratory tract infections while at nursery, but that this may protect them against some nasties, such as some types of leukaemia, juvenile diabetes and asthma/allergies. (Study cited here, plus other studies)

We know that attending poor nurseries is weakly associated with higher levels of cortisol (a stress hormone) amongst some children. (US study)

We know that attending poor nurseries is weakly associated with behavioural problems for some children. (US studies)

So the verdict is probably nursery can be good thing for children if it is a good one. Hope that cheers people up a bit.

"Children attending day care have an increased risk of contracting a variety of common infections"
That what boffins BMJ study says at the end, as well as - it appears that children attending day care have a reduced risk of contracting ALL. Maybe I am unfortunate in encountering so many of the minor infections!
I NEVER spout my view to my patients, they have enough to contend with, working and looking after sick LOs. That would be unforgiveable. I agree entirely with your last paragraph, but a lot of employers are not understanding. I never intended to 'get at' anyone, I dont think I did, just express an opinion that nursery causes physical stresses on babies/childrens' immune systems and the consequent illnesses causes massive stress to already stressed parents.