I now know I'm right about little girls and the hijab.....

[PosieComeHereMyPreciousParker]

talking to a beautiful Somali lady today(they all have hollywood smiles don't they, bloody genetic miracles!!) and she confirmed that whilst her 5 & 7 year old dds don't cover their heads she gets harassed and pressured by men at the mosque that her dds should cover. She said that whilst she doesn't because she loves her dds hair, other women do cover their very young dds. She said the men also say that unless they do it from very young they will not do it when they are the right age!

So it's not only about copying Mummy, just like the rise of the burka it's a renewed stick to beat women with.

tsc....I understood your point, I just don't agree with you. Modesty is one thing, religious head covering is another there's nothing wrong with children from any group dressing like children but it's quite another for them to wear clothing designed to oppress women for women to avert sexual predators, oops men.

As for the UK being or not being Muslim, I think everyone has a right to practice their faith within the social norms already set by the country in which they live. Prayers, chastity, religious observance, fasting whatever is fine for adults but not for children. I think there is a fine line between acceptable religious expectations and those that infringe upon the rights of our children. Every child has the right to have a childhood and whether it be practising the piano for three hours a night or head covering I think it limits those rights.

I think the bee in my bonnet is the religious excuse for something frankly old fashioned and a bit odd, when it comes to children, is unacceptable.

Posie, do you still live abroad? Or do I have the wrong person?

Posie you're just always picking on one religion.
Name one religion that doesn't have sexual inequality.

Name one nationality or race or state that doesn't.

Just one.

Haven't read all the comments so sorry if I'm repeating anything but just wanted to say that Muslim women should be free to have the choice to cover up if they wish to. Saying that "they" are oppressed is doing a massive disservice to a large number of women who have 100% made the choice for themselves. Of course there are cases were women are being controlled and this should be addressed but taking away the right for women to respect their religion in the way they see fit is not the way to do it.
Back to the OP. I don't see the problem with kids covering their hair. Parents make choices about what their kids wear all the time. I think it is insulting (and predjudiced) to assume that it is because Muslim men would otherwise lust after children. Another, more plausible, reason is that parents want to get children used to covering up and dressing in a way that is considered respectful in their culture.

No it doesn't. I was born here and am in no part English. I tan very nicely in summer and never burn I'll have you know

So agree with Homeboys just to clarify

Much as I would like my little boy to be Welsh, he was born in Yorkshire and is therefore English.

So if I gave birth in China my children would be Chinese would they?
I could have sworn Jeremy Beadle was dead!

I live in a strongly Islamic gulf state where possibly the majority of women wear the hijab+.

I hate seeing little girls in the hijab in exactly the same way that I gate seeing little girls in stripper boots. I thnk both sexualise children. One overtly and one by pretending there's something to hide.

That said it's actually pretty rare and almost exclusively the Indonesians here, more cultural than religious. Most little girls wear short skirts and strappy tops like anywhere else.

I have never seen a child wearing the niqab or a burkha (well except my fruend's daughter when dressingup!) and would be shocked. Is this honestly common in the UK?

All that said, I would defend to the death a parent's right to dress their child as they want to (assuming the child doesn't have a strong preference).

Finally, I know many, many Muslim women born in 'free' countries who choose to cover. I know some (much rarer) who are giving into peer pressure. I also know Christian women who are pressured into dressing a certain way. Does this mean all Christian women are oppressed? Of course not. Some are as are some Muslims. The majority of both religions choose their dress based ontheir belief system.

Too many typos to count. Sorry!

"So if I gave birth in China my children would be Chinese would they?"

Technically, yes! So you think my ds isn't English then?

Actually no. I was born in china and I'm not Chinese. Feel free to check with the Chinese government on that one!

If both parents are Welsh, he's Welsh! His blood would be no part English.

To be honest though spikeycow I know a lot of 'ethnic' Uk passport holders who would be offended to be told they weren't 'english'. They would also be probably offended to be told they weren't (eg) pakistani. Personally I think one doesn't exclude the other

I call myself Italian, British born.

I don't like little Kids wearing the Hijab really but I can't say I'm particularly bothered by it. Its not hurting them.

Can't say I like the message it sends out either but the vast majority of people in this country choose to wear it and it is their right to wear what they like IMO. Most of the muslim girls I know don't wear it until after puberty, if at all.

The only one I ever had a problem with was a school friend who was forced to wear a hijab by her parents. She wore it on the way to school, took it off all day then wore it home again. Someone being forced to wear one against their will I have a big problem with!

As for the Burqa, I think they are horribly oppressive personally but again the vast majority of women (In the UK anyway) who wear them choose to do so, as is their right. I would have a much bigger problem with the government trying to ban certain types of clothing (like in France), I find that much more oppressive.

Indeed, I have friends whose parents are from Pakistan, India and Trinidad, and consider themselves English because they were born here.

My ds's Dad is English. But if our ds had been born in Wales, there's no way I would be calling him English.

Well I was born in England and am offended by the insinuation I'm English. Because I'm not.
And I have friends who would be very angry to be called English when they have no English blood in them. Because they aren't English.
And you try telling an Irish person they're English because they were born in England.

On second thoughts, forget the last bit. Don't.

I'm not racist but..........

Sorry, I just recall from earlier someone was waiting for it.

I love the sweeping statements too. Like "all mixed race children are beautiful." Oh really, take a look at some of my childhood photographs. Not a term one would use to descibe me.

i don't understand this 'blood' thing. surely we all have a mix of blood from generations gone by, enough to make us more than just english/welsh etc. i mean i have two parents from northern ireland but i know that a few generations ago my dad's family came from france. this means my 'blood' isn't just irish. i don't think you can base it on just blood.

I know someone who was born here but whose Dad is Italian, too. She just says her Dad is Italian! Much like I would imagine my ds would say 'my Mum is Welsh' when he gets older.

As far as I'm concerned my blood is Italian. Where it says ethnicity on forms I don't tick white British, but white other. Then I write Italian British born.
The blood thing is very important in some cultures. I understand the thing about mixed blood from way back, but as far as I'm concerned my blood is Italian.