I now know I'm right about little girls and the hijab.....

[PosieComeHereMyPreciousParker]

talking to a beautiful Somali lady today(they all have hollywood smiles don't they, bloody genetic miracles!!) and she confirmed that whilst her 5 & 7 year old dds don't cover their heads she gets harassed and pressured by men at the mosque that her dds should cover. She said that whilst she doesn't because she loves her dds hair, other women do cover their very young dds. She said the men also say that unless they do it from very young they will not do it when they are the right age!

So it's not only about copying Mummy, just like the rise of the burka it's a renewed stick to beat women with.

homeboys are you serious? can you tell me how many generations have to have lived in england before they are english? is it 5 or 6 or 10? what is acceptable to you? and as for not white meaning not english?? what planet do you live on?

HB, are you having a laugh and being sarcastic as you are sounding very BNP.

so how many generations does it take to assimilate and be allowed to feel 'english'? What about when all the intermarrying goes on.

homeboy i assume from your posts you have traced you family lineage back as far as possible to determine that you are indeed 'english'? do you know for sure that none of you ancestors maybe 2/3 generations ago were not from another country?

what is so weird Spikey, about my sons possibly feeling more english than scottish in the future as they were born and mostly raised here, have english accents etc. or are they not allowed to decide for themselves which nationality they identify more with.

Is English a feeling? An identity? What is it? If I was german and adoted by an English family, never knowing being German, I would be English?

I could live in China for the rest of my years and I would never be Chinese!

Nothing weird, same as if there is nothing weird about me being Italian. But I was still questionned for over an hour! What your children call themselves has nothing to do with me whatsoever, I don't feel the sense of entitlement to dictate to people what their identity should be.

According to all these you would be Chinese Posie. You have no choice in the matter. What Mumsnetters say has to go.

I know third generation Italians, many many where I grew up, some are English and some are Italian. Most people of Irish decent I know, my MIL and mother included, are English...

Isn't down to the individual?

yes, I think your nationality can boil down to a feeling and identity, not just ' blood' and where your parents were born. For me it's more complicated than that especially these days with so much intermarrying, immigration etc. I have no problem with accepting a black person as being english if they or their parents were born here and that is what they feel they are. I also respect those who want to keep the nationality of there parents or whatever.

And spikey

the whole thing with you which set this off was then many posts you posted saying' how you couldn't be a bigot as you were married to a muslim' Then you proceeded to post posts which sounded quite bigoted towards english people. That was what got peoples attention - not you wanting to be accepted as Italian - no-one had a problem with that.

Yep, totally down to the individual. Most of the Turkish Muslims I know socialise with Turks, talk Turkish only. Some mix with English boys, but their identities are strongly Turkish. I know some Irish that would be very angry to be called English.
Nobodys buisness to be telling people what they are. It's also very patronising and disrespectful to dismiss peoples heritage and identity.

OK I'm bigoted towards English people then.

what you wrote sounded bigoted, I don't think that was your intention but that 's what some people read and questioned you on.

Right so I'm bigoted then. Intentions are irrelevant, I must be a bigot if that's what was picked up on. Also, people were questionning how Italian I was. That was in fact a direct question if you look back. So, not only am I, in fact, English after all, I'm also bigoted against the English, which at the same time, don't even exist! That is what happens when a few people pile onto one person. You were all stating quite different things, but as one unit, which didn't really make sense.

I really think that our culture enshrines equality for women and that this fast growing tradition is in direct contradiction to that.

I hesitate to say it but I secretly love the French for putting their feet down about this.

I don't want these women confined to their homes because of it. I wish their menfolk could be communicated with. Why do they want to go back to a medieval time?

I've lived Muslim countries and I think Islam is fabulous in many ways and Muslim people are as warm and good as any group. But this growing backwards movement towards covering women up is, imho, very very bad.

Women died for their equality in this country. I actually feel shame when I see it. Not the pride some veiled women describe feeling. I feel real shame for them and me.

I think Muslims in todays society need to compromise. Hijab evokes a lot of anxiety and upset in non-muslim (and many muslim women) alike.

If the point is to stave off unwanted attention from men then I would suggest Muslim women dress themselves in some other garb. Halloween is coming up-maybe they could all dress as pumpkins?

They could change theme every season
Winter-snowmen
Spring-easter bunnies
Summer-beach balls
Autumn-giant conkers.

The rest of the population will be charmed and no man would ever fancy a giant conker.

WIN/WIN

I am submitting this idea to the govt ASAP

I don't like women being shut away either. They are being oppressed then on 2 levels, personally and politically.They have no choice either way. Cover, or don't go out, but you are no longer allowed to cover.
In Turkey, some women have managed to climb the career ladder, in certain areas. When women first went to work in managerial positions, they were required to cover their hair and be refered to as "sister" by their colleagues, to remove the "sexual" element. Not sure if this is still the case

sort of agree Longstocking. Some muslims seem to be deliberately choosing to go what I would call backwards. Is this a rise in fundamentalism, where women are being marginalised? I have a Malaysian friend who sees a huge change in the was Islam is pushed or practiced there. She is worried how it will progress. Are other muslims worried about this? Obviously I don't feel this is the majority of muslims, but those who shout loudest may be heard above those who are moderate.

What is the problem with hijab? It is only a scarf. I don't like fully veiled or burkha (though never actually seen one here), but to ban it....

Fundamentalism is on the rise for sure and I blame us in the west for mismanaging our foreign relations, wars, alliances for a long long time for that.

Things could have been very different. The situation in the Middle East has exacerbated so many things and the British have to hold their hands up to have helped create such shocking injustice in the modern world.

I think it's too late to look for modern muslim states to go back to a more woman friendly time.

I think enough Muslim men feel embattled and insecure to keep their communities going backwards in this respect which is a huge shame in my opinion.

But I think we should as a nation have the courage to say we love our Muslim countrywomen and men. You are part of our nation but this attitude to women is alien to us. We should learn more respect for women in terms of treating women as sexual objects and you need to learn more respect for women in terms of treating them as gender inferiors.

Probably need to start at school with that then....

When I am having a bad hair day, I'd love to have the option of wearing Hijab

I have no problem with muslim women wearing the hijab or bhurka if it is their choice to do so. I think it must be, in some ways quite liberating.

I do have a problem with the idea that wearing these garments is a religious statement. It is cultural, not religious.

That's what I envy about my Muslim friends who cover. Split ends don't matter so much

Longstocking - Agree totally, really enjoyed you post.

Re: practice argument

It dosnt work posey,I find it hard to believe its just aimed at a practice.

When you start posting regular threads complaining about Hasidic Jewish Women Wearing Wigs , or the Amish wearing Bonnet's, or women pressurized into wearing the Sari, or a Christan nuns wearing a habit, then Ill see it as a legitimate debate about a practice.

Your right, any woman of girl being forced to do the above practices is wrong, but your not continually and obsessively mentioning any of the above are you?You are fixated on one particular form of woman religious and cultural dress.

Why is that?

So..have you met/know any Hasidic Jewish women? What about Amish, have you bumped into loads of Amish in Tescos Eastville recently?

But there they are Possy, those women stood in the Que in front of you in the shop, looking so dam alien in your territory, so different to your culture, right here and being served before you in the shop. Looking so dam other..right where you live.

You wouldn't care about them if they weren't there,if they were far away,but here they are, making you feel uncomfortable, not looking like you, being so goddam different to you.

When you start regularly posting threads on the Sari,wig,bonnet and the habit, I will apologizes to you for getting you wrong.

Your so right, you cant tell people what to wear.

My understanding is that moslem women are required to dress modestly. What form that takes is a matter for each individual woman.

However, I am uncomfortable with the idea that any child need consider modesty in the same way.

Early sexualisation is always a bad thing.

True litchick.